Bitter or Better: Real Stories of Divorce and Resilience

Ep. 13 - Foreign Land, Foreign Healing: Navigating MS And Isolation

• Abby England • Season 1 • Episode 13

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0:00 | 59:20

Navigating marriage when critical information is kept in the dark drains every ounce of your energy, leaving you second-guessing your own reality. Moving across the globe and facing a chronic illness diagnosis only amplifies that isolation, forcing you to question everything you built your life around. In this episode, host Abby sits down with her long-time college friend Sarah, who shares her raw experience with diplomatic life overseas, dealing with a surprise Multiple Sclerosis diagnosis far from home, and navigating a painful separation where open communication was completely absent.

We sit down to talk through the difficult transition of living as a government spouse with strict boundaries on what could be shared, raising three small children in foreign cities, and facing an health crisis without an immediate support network. Sarah breaks down the subtle reality of emotional disconnection, the fallout of high-school flame emails, and the intense logistical gymnastics of moving back to the United States while living under her in-laws' roof. She opens up about her personal turning point when she recognized that holding onto kindness in a high-conflict split required setting strict internal boundaries rather than managing her ex-partner's reactions.

Rebuilding an identity after a quiet breakdown is not clean, fast, or comfortable. It demands letting go of how you thought your life was going to look, handling legal friction with an ex who refuses to cooperate, and processing the emotional weight of shared custody when you have no family living nearby. The practical takeaways lie in learning how to honor your daily physical limitations, utilizing forced alone time as a tool to recharge rather than a punishment, and stepping directly into your 4.0 or 6.0 version with zero apologies.

If you care about emotional recovery after betrayal, managing health crises during life shifts, and building true self-advocacy, you will get a lot from this episode. Make sure to subscribe to the channel and share this conversation with a friend who might be sitting in their own quiet season of isolation. What is the biggest lesson you have learned about trusting your own voice when someone tried to convince you that you were crazy?

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Butter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce and Metallica, the podcast that gets real about the messy middle of divorce and what it takes to come out stronger on the other side. I'm your host, Bobby Ingle, Marketer, National Four Certified Alpha Monster Coach, and author of the upcoming book, Butter for Better. And I've personally earned mydeivor. You are not alone. Let's hear someone else's story and see what resonates.

SPEAKER_02

I'm here in Chicagoland with my college friend. And I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_00

Will you uh introduce who you are for our listeners? Yeah, my name is Sarah. I live in the Chicagoland Metro outside.

SPEAKER_02

I don't even know like where Chicagoland starts and ends.

SPEAKER_00

I would say this is the furthest out that you could maybe say Chicagoland.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I don't know. I'm not a native. Oh, so you don't even you don't even have an official I don't care.

unknown

I know I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02

I do tell people from northern Illinois, hey, there's a whole southern part of the state, which is where I'm from, that is also Illinois, and they're like, never heard of it. They really haven't though.

SPEAKER_00

I know. They think this is like farms, and while it is, it's a pretty perfect little mix. I have three pretty cool kids. Keep me busy. I work out of my home, been all over. We're gonna talk about where you've been.

SPEAKER_02

The first question I ask people is why on earth they are willing to sit down with me and open up a deeply hard, traumatic chapter of their lives.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let um be honest. So I agreed on me-jerk because you asked me and I can't say no to you. Good to know. And then I thought about it. I thought about how lonely I was. Even just this week and thinking and preparing and you know, anticipation. I thought about how I am the only friend I have that is divorced. When I needed someone to talk to, I I didn't have anyone who could understand, and the people that I did have, while very supportive, wanted me to fix things that I could not control or fix. So I think if there are more voices out there just supporting each other, knowing we're not alone, I felt very alone.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for being so vulnerable in sharing that. And thank you for recognizing this is what I went through. If I can be a voice for someone else who also feels alone, then maybe they feel less alone by hearing my story.

SPEAKER_00

I think having grown up, well, I grew up everywhere, moving every two years or so, but growing up in very religious families, going through this process has been very difficult.

SPEAKER_02

We'll definitely get into how others looking in and not actually being in your marriage affected how how everything I hold some responsibility in that. So I think we all do. For sure. As much as we don't want to admit it. Well, let's rewind the clock. If you can tell us how you guys met, what attracted you to each other, kind of the the early days.

SPEAKER_00

We had this little girl posse, four of us. We went out one night. I was the sober driver. Yeah, we kind of just bar hopped in this little area of Kansas City. We heard there was a bachelor party at another bar. So me and one girl were like, we gotta go over there. And yeah, I met my ex-husband. He was not part of that party, he was there. And quite honestly, it was the drunkest I've ever seen the man. I am attracted to people who are interesting. Okay, what made him interesting? He was this very physically like very built man. Turns out he was a bodybuilder. Not why I was interested in him at at all. Didn't even notice that. My friend told me that later, like he had really big arm muscles. It's like weird. Um, he was really into like musicals, and so we were at the bar talking about musical theater, and I was like, fascinating. This person is so interesting, just chit chatting about the usual things that you talk about at bars is musical theater, of course, in in mid west in the Midwest, of course. What else are you gonna talk about? He was just fascinating to me. He wasn't like anyone else, had very good conversation. He asked for my number, and then we went out and I was messaging with our mutual friend. I was like, I'm I honestly don't remember what he looks like. And my other friend was like, Well, he has huge arms. So you don't even remember what he looks like. I don't, and I was sober. It was the conversation. Yeah. I really like people who have a story to tell, and here's this guy, this rowdy bar.

SPEAKER_02

If we fast forward the clock, describe the marriage and the family dynamic.

SPEAKER_00

It didn't start off well. I thought, wow, we beat the odds, we've made it. We were engaged and we moved he got a job up here actually. So I followed him. We lived in this really nice apartment complex, you know, things were going really well. Something was just off. Things were just not something was off, things were weird.

SPEAKER_02

Things were off before you got married?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay, okay. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So before the story, it got really bad. There was just so much drama with our parents and planning the wedding, and I thought it was all just like wedding planning and all this stuff, but it was so much more and so much deeper that I I was naive and I didn't know everything. So I actually called off our wedding. I moved. I had a a dear friend who saved me. Her dad had a place. I I lived in this not great place, but I was on my own. And then his sister had texted me, and I just reached out to him, and that's kind of how we got back. He was keeping a very big secret from me, and everyone knew, his whole family knew. So I do think that they had good intentions, but when you're the only one who doesn't know, your mind fills in the blanks. Your mind will create stories. Right. And so I created a story that everybody hated me, and it was really that he was hiding something from me, and I needed to know. So once we got back talking, we went through therapy, we obviously got married. We ran off, like not ran off, we had planned it. We went to Vegas and got married. I know, can you imagine?

SPEAKER_02

I cannot even imagine. It is not me. Sarah from college running off to Vegas. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

No. In my very like super conservative dress.

SPEAKER_02

It was almost like a turtleneck.

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, so we went to Vegas and like two days before we did invite our parents, because we weren't going to invite them. But then we did, and they came, and we had a lovely little time. So it didn't start off awesome.

SPEAKER_02

It kind of sounds like it started off with some secrecy.

SPEAKER_00

There was a dishonesty there. I have had friends ask me if I wish I hadn't married him. I find that question kind of hurtful because I would love to have avoided a lot of heartache. Uh he did take me on this incredible journey, like literally a journey across half the world. But I have these three kids who are fascinating. They're people I would want to talk to in the bar. They're interesting. They're interesting people. Like what a gift. That's a tough question. I just don't like it. Yeah. But everyone can ask anyone. And you can't.

SPEAKER_02

You can't change it. So what what's the value in asking it?

SPEAKER_00

I think the people who have asked me were the people who saw the heartache of the engagement ending, and literally uh I had to pick myself up. I was not okay. And then for them to see it happen again.

SPEAKER_02

So it's coming from a place of love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Pretty not easy to watch.

SPEAKER_02

So you have these interesting kids. Sounds like an interesting life. What what was the marriage like?

SPEAKER_00

Um, as soon as we got married, literally weeks later, right? Yeah. I don't even know when I'm gonna get married. When you kind of elope, you it's hard to remember the day. Any Tuesday. It was a Monday. Like, I don't know. Um so we he had taken a job with the government, we canceled our honeymoon, we had to go straight to DC. So immediately into marriage, we were in a new place. I was lucky enough that my work would let me work from home. Um, and this was before remote work, but nobody did this, people were not happy. And in a new place with no friends, no connection, no family, and a husband who is very excited and has a very big job that is arguably more important than me, just by the nature of what he was doing. You can't argue with what he was working on. Like, you just can't. I come from a family of military, like my dad was in the military, so I understand the duty and honor and country, but I think having to live that as the wife, fresh, brand new, that's not how we were before we were married, and now we're immediately married, immediately this is our new life.

SPEAKER_02

It was hard. It's incredibly hard to be picked up and transplanted in a new place where you know no one.

SPEAKER_00

No no one, and he can't talk to me about what he's doing. I'm not involved in anything, so our marriage immediately was his life is his life, his work is his work. It was just completely separate. There was very little crossover.

SPEAKER_02

It sounds like the points of connection were few and far between.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And I think the work that he was doing, it was um he was working for the State Department and he couldn't tell me anything. And so that created this environment where I just don't ask because I can't know, and it doesn't get anywhere to ask him anything, and he's gonna feel a certain way, and it's just like, well, we'll just have this little life that we have here at home, and that's really it.

SPEAKER_02

Your life is really confined to when we're at home together.

SPEAKER_00

Right, when he is home.

SPEAKER_02

For those three to four hours outside of sleeping.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. There's no texting during the day, there's no call during the day, there's nothing. He leaves, he's gone. Which people have done forever, but that wasn't what what I had been used to. So it was an adjustment.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Washington DC. What's the next next few chapters after that?

SPEAKER_00

So DC, we were in the metro, we I had a weird situation. We rented a house, then we bought a home, and I was pregnant, still working from home. I was able to have my three kids working from home. Um, we knew that he he was gonna need to go overseas at some point. So we had tried a couple different places, it just hadn't hadn't worked out. And we were super hopeful that this job would would work out, and we found out he got this job he was gonna be going. We were gonna be going to London to work at the embassy there. And so we had our third and final baby, knowing that okay, we're gonna have this baby here in America. It's gonna be US. And I had pretty rough birthing situations. So I wanted to say with my doctor, um, have this baby here, pack it up, go. So that's what we did. We packed up with a five-year-old, three-year-old, and a five-month-old to England. We had 15 suitcases.

SPEAKER_02

I can't even imagine trying to move like five people to a whole nother life across the world.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I went a little crazy. He thought I was nuts, and I was not. Um, because everything was by weight. If you have any military listeners or anything, they know you can get so much weight in storage, you can take so much weight with you, you get so much weight for your air shipment, then so much weight for the boat. So, yeah, it was crazy. He was gone a lot before that. He traveled a lot with um to go to the Middle East and like a lot of other places. Um, so yeah. Yeah, we went to England. That was hard.

SPEAKER_02

You have to do it again now. You you have to re-establish a whole new life in another country where you don't know anyone.

SPEAKER_00

So isolating. For the first year, I was home with the kids. I had never done that. Holy smokes, that's really hard. And we had to navigate getting kids into schools and like trying to get them there and not having a car, and I don't know how to do anything. I know they speak English, but I can't understand anyone, and being terrified. I've never lived in a city before. Um, I do public transportation the first time my little three-year-old was trying to get off the bus. She sat down and scooted herself off, and I was like, oh god, we're not gonna make it. We do not fit in here. But yeah, I learned a lot. You're smart too. You figure shit out. Oh yeah, I figured it out. And after the butt scooting incident, we were golden on the bus. We were so good. Uh everyone should have to do that. It's hard to move to another country. I think everyone thought all of my friends here thought it was gonna be glamorous, easy because it they speak English, but it's different. And English, while amazing, they already have their friends. They don't really want me to be their friends.

SPEAKER_02

They don't they don't need a new American friend.

SPEAKER_00

We don't need a new American friend. We were diplomats, so like we're also not rich. The other Americans that are there are in the circles that we were hanging because of our children, are very well off, and we are like the scholarship children.

SPEAKER_02

So like we don't really fit in here.

SPEAKER_00

So that was interesting. I got to then eventually I worked at the embassy for two years, and that was beautiful, magical. Learned so much, would do that job forever if I could, but I can't. But it was hard.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, just moving to a different state is hard. It's a whole other country.

SPEAKER_00

When I started working, we got a nanny, which also sounds sounds so glamorous, and it's like I would have much preferred to go to a daycare provider, but they don't exist in the way that they do here. Love my nanny, still text her all the time. The school situation was different. It was it's just it was very hard. And then physically I started to decline. Health-wise. Yeah. It was terrifying, and I didn't have any support. The support I was getting via phone or you know, whatever, was just minimizing. My body was failing me, and I was scared. My husband was busy and I had to take care of things at home, but physically I wasn't able to. So it came to a head. We took a we like been so excited. We're here, we're gonna do all this traveling. We took one trip. We had to leave early because I physically could not do it. And it makes me sad, but it happens. I think the combination of my health issues, my husband's job, or my ex-husband's job, and living in a foreign country, it was a lot of pressure on us. And three young kids, too. Three young kids. Yeah, I was not the best version of myself. By any stretch of the imagination. Eventually, I was diagnosed with MS. I knew I had MS. My mother has MS. I'm familiar with the disease, but I do have a flair for the dramatics. Um no one could see me. So they didn't see the they didn't see it. I was not well. So going through that and you went through that in London as well? Yeah, I was diagnosed in London. It was actually a beautiful experience. I wouldn't change that experience for anything. It was so fortunate. At the embassy, I worked for the health department. So I had the American doctors there were my friends, and they got me into the best neurologists. That was my job, helping people get doctors' appointments. So, like, I was into the best hospital, into the best doctors. I had American health insurance, so I could go privately. It's a weird disease, but like I didn't have to fight for a diagnosis. It was pretty straightforward. When I got the official word, we knew for sure that he went with me to the appointment. It was Christmas Eve.

unknown

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00

We had friends from home from America coming that day. I'm so glad that they were there. We got that news, but I don't think he could process it. And I needed a lot. I needed a lot of support, and I don't think he knew how to handle it. So I was struggling, like emotionally. Physically, I was recovering and I was going to go on and have medication and have great things, you know. Medicine is amazing. But emotionally I was not okay. Perfect storm?

SPEAKER_02

Perfect storm to what storm? We had a lot of storms.

SPEAKER_00

We had a lot of storms. They were just they were brewing. And then COVID hit.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. So now we're at the time frame of COVID, 2020.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was diagnosed I got the official diagnosis Christmas Eve night 2019, and then COVID hit 2020. I mean, it was stressful for everybody. London shut down in a way that I don't think most Americans can understand. Literally not allowed to leave your house. Like you can't, you're not, you're allowed to go for one walk a day.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, we didn't we didn't experience that. No. It was completely different. If you sat down on a bench, a an officer would might stop you and be like, you need to leave. The people back home are having different experience than I was having. And that was hard to and you're already isolated. Super isolated. And then COVID on top of that. COVID on top of that. I had to do a round of steroids. Man, they do it different there. They like pump you up. So I was like superwoman. Like I was like, man, I haven't been able to walk, but now I can like. I was like Louisa. An Encanto like lifting stuff and like getting it done and then they don't taper you off, you just go cold turkey. I mean that was hard. That was not a good version. I wasn't prepared for that. That was in March 2020. And we were stuck in the house, fighting, not good, not able to leave, so not able to get any reprieve from each other or space, homeschooling. I mean we all had to do it, but it was difficult with those other factors at the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. If you were back here, you still would have had that, but there would have been the support network and familiarity and couldn't even do like Zoom stuff because the time difference.

SPEAKER_00

Our home was while by London standards huge. We had a standalone home. Tiny. Tiny. I was tired and my body was all messed up from medication. My mind was all over the place. I was not my best.

SPEAKER_02

That takes vulnerability to share all that.

SPEAKER_00

It was terrible, I was I mean, he wasn't his best either. It would have been hard to do anywhere, but just in that environment.

SPEAKER_02

Trifecta.

SPEAKER_00

We'd be stuck in the house with each other. It was really it was really difficult. As I physically was getting better and I started seeing a therapist there, I got on some medication, which I should have been put on immediately. I didn't know to ask. I'm still learning things. I started to kind of be leveling out a little, but it was still this like coldness from my ex. He had cut me off emotionally. I didn't realize it corresponded with somebody reaching out to him via email, and he had asked me if it was okay that he, you know, what should we do? And I'm who I am and I'm going to be everybody's friend. Um his high school girlfriend had emailed him. He was like, should I email back? And I said, Oh my gosh. Well, obviously she needs a friend. So yeah, we should email her back.

SPEAKER_02

Sounds like we're getting into the what happened part of the story.

SPEAKER_00

It changed. And I thought I was losing my mind because I was kind of there was a lot of like self-doubt in myself. Everything about me was changing. Was I imagining things? I don't know. It was different. And I was asking for support and help, and I wasn't getting any of it back. Some of that I can understand now, and some of it I can't. We sold our home in Virginia. So we had this extra cash. We had decided he was going to quit the government work. This was just not going to be good for our family. It's too hard. We don't really want our kids popping around all over the world. We want to have a stable. I didn't have that as a kid. He did. We wanted that for our kids. So we he was like, let's go back to the Midwest as a guest. But I had suggested, like, you're not willing, and I can't give anymore. What if we just split that money and we called it?

SPEAKER_02

At some point in London in England. Our things are kind of escalating. You guys have a conversation about He doesn't have conversations.

SPEAKER_00

So I say things and he told me no. This is just how this is how our marriage was. Okay. He told me we just need to get back to America. Which sounds so silly saying, because who says that? But from where we were, it's like we just need to we need to get out of here. We need to have stability. Let's get back to America and we'll be fine. And I I believed him. Yeah, why wouldn't you? I thought, okay, this is just hard right now. This is hard right now because the world is literally going crazy. And we just need to get back to what we know.

SPEAKER_02

So you were on board with this plan that he was like, Yeah, my whole I grew up being like, this is what I want.

SPEAKER_00

I want to be married, I want to have children, I want that.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe there is a lot coming at us. What if we can just stabilize back in America?

SPEAKER_00

Right. Let's just do it. We'll be okay. So we do the nuttiness of packing up, moving back. We had bought this house sight unseen. Where'd you move back to? Here. To Chicagoland. This house? Okay. Our house wasn't ready. So we moved in with his parents. He had a couple weeks off, like R to just like decompress. The kids were gonna go to Disney with his family. We were gonna have a whole week by ourselves. I thought, oh my gosh, this is gonna be so great. We can reconnect, like we can like do fun things. I don't know. Go out to dinner, I don't know. Right. Have some fun. We did some painting in the house, like we were getting ready. I thought, okay, we're doing it. We weren't, I guess. We did therapy, and the therapist gave us like some things to work on, some things to talk about, and he just wouldn't. A couple days later, I asked him, like, what are we doing? He told me he wanted a divorce, and we were sitting in his mom and dad's living room, and I was living in their house. It was terrible. You were like fresh off the boat almost? Yeah, we had been here a couple weeks, but he wasn't gonna be around for much longer. I think he had like a week left or two, maybe, before we had to go back to DC. I still didn't have furniture here in the house, and the stuff was still in England and in Virginia. So I had to live with his parents. We had to go to dinner like that night with his sister. It was very difficult.

SPEAKER_02

Nobody knew. So that's when he dropped the D bomb on you.

SPEAKER_00

I was so mad. What was the reasoning? In our marriage, I had learned just don't ask. He he said he didn't love me anymore.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know what the follow is the follow-up is to that.

SPEAKER_00

So I say I can't make you love me. Clearly, we've been trying for many years. And there was clearly not any trying. Yeah. He did therapy to tick the box to say he did it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, nope, it's not it's not working. Weird.

SPEAKER_00

So he left. He went to DC. Still living with his parents. And they know or they don't know? I made him tell them. He wasn't going to tell them. So he did. They cried. They said they needed therapy. I wish y'all could see my babies. Um his parents have actually been very kind and generous. They helped me move into this house. His dad helps me with so many things around here. If something is making a weird noise, I call his dad.

SPEAKER_02

And where are you at in the divorce process? What it hadn't even started yet.

SPEAKER_00

Hadn't even started. It was not a fun time. We did that for two years. Did what for two years? Um for a full year. He would not do anything with the divorce. I emailed attorneys eventually. Like I gave it some time because I was like, well, we do need to establish residency in those countries. I need to get the kids to school. I needed to like I had to get a job.

SPEAKER_02

We're gonna pin put a little pin in this divorce thing as a get my life resituated.

SPEAKER_00

I had to get it together in the most not great looking way possible. So like six months it was fine, but I had started emailing attorneys. We wanted to do it as micable as possible because there's no fixing it. He was done. He would come home every other weekend, he would take the kids for those two days, and then I had them the rest of the time. So that was pretty hard. But it was good in its own weird way. Eventually, though, he just was not open to filing. He would not do it.

SPEAKER_02

And you were waiting for him to file?

SPEAKER_00

I it was in this weird head space where like I felt paralyzed in our marriage. He made all the big decisions. I didn't have access to any banking information. It was just not a great situation. Eventually I was like, we have to do this, like for the kids, like we need stuff on paper. So we tried mediation, but it made it so far as to me talking to the mediator, and she wouldn't mediate for us because I wasn't an equal situation, and he had too much control over me still. Okay, very hard conversation. I balled on the phone with this poor attorney. I'm sure she's used to it.

SPEAKER_02

She probably I cried to my attorney too. Yeah, I think they're used to it.

SPEAKER_00

But she was like, I can't help you. You can't mediate. And I think that I knew that inside, but I had wanted to be like, we're gonna do this so well. Like, I'm gonna get divorced so kindly. That's what you want.

SPEAKER_02

Delusional. Isn't there such a thing as a kind divorce?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I was like, we're gonna do this as best as we can. I'm going to suck up so much because I've got these little people here. I'm gonna do this kindly.

SPEAKER_02

What was important to you about doing it kindly?

SPEAKER_00

The kids. I I think I was treated so cruelly in the way I was told and the lead up to it that I just can't imagine hurting someone like that. And so I didn't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02

You were trying to honor kindness throughout this process.

SPEAKER_00

I was trying to honor myself in knowing that I am a good person. You're throwing all this stuff at me and making me feel like I'm not a good person. I'm a good person.

SPEAKER_02

So you tried mediation and that turned out to be unsuccessful. I took a phone call, yeah. So then what were next steps after that?

SPEAKER_00

She referred me to my attorney. Loved them. He was very angry.

SPEAKER_02

Your attorney was angry?

SPEAKER_00

My ex-husband.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I'm sorry. Very angry. That you had gotten legal representation at that point? Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Very angry. Well, shocking. Because he wanted to settle outside of he wanted to keep costs down, which I think everyone wants that. It's also what they say. He also doesn't live his life that way, so I think it's funny. But yeah, just to keep costs down, and I get that. I've wanted that too. That wasn't going to be possible. It was just not pretty.

SPEAKER_02

I'm right there with you. I I had to also decide to get legal representation because my ex wanted to do it outside of the court system. And basically, hand the court system here, a stamp of approval, divorce us. I also was ignorant to our finances, but I knew enough to say, I am too ignorant to trust you completely on this. So I'm gonna get legal representation to watch my back. You're smarter than I am.

SPEAKER_00

That's not true. He's an attorney. My ex-husband's an attorney. He knows what he's doing. He is very smart. And I'm not saying that I'm not smart, but I am not. I don't take the bar.

SPEAKER_02

I'm not a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know the rules. And I trust everyone. But in this situation, even though I knew not to, I still trusted him.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

It hadn't yet come out everything. There were feelings, there were suspicions, but it didn't come out until much, much later. The reality of the situation. Okay. I'm glad I found out much later. It was a very cruel way to find out. And again, I will never do anything like that because I would never want anyone to feel that way. But this is my reality.

SPEAKER_02

So you got legal representation. He was very upset about it. But then what happened?

SPEAKER_00

Then he I mean he got an attorney. My attorney was often shocked by my ex-husband's emails and the way that he spoke to me, her, and everyone. But I think that was good for me to wake up a little bit. I was seeing things that other people could see, but I was blind to it. I trust and I don't verify. I just trust. Now I trust and verify. Um but that was good. I learned a lot. I'm still learning. I'm still not fully following through on some of the things that I learned, but I know better now. We didn't really fight about things. There were a couple things we went back and forth on. He didn't put up a fight about things. He would throw little fits or whatever. I think that was just to kind of, for lack of a better term, to kind of bully me. I don't know that that was really his intention, but it's just how it went. 50-50 all the way across. I don't want any more. Don't want any less. Um, but he was still living in DC and he had 50-50 parenting. Oh. We did that for a while, but he was flying back and forth. I don't think he was always there, and I found out, and so I had to then go back to my attorney. But since then, everything's good. He then did move himself here. He lives with his family. My ex-in-laws are fabulous, they help with my children. I do a lot of co-parenting with them because he never left his government job. So he's still not available. So I do a lot of co-parenting with them. We are much better at co-parenting now. We still have moments. I saw him yesterday. Basketball game. We laugh. We do things with our kids. We try to be as together as we can be, but it's not going to be the divorce that I wanted when we started the process. A kind divorce. It's not a kind. I think I I was delusional. I was really crazy. I was like, I want us to still be able to do some holiday things together.

SPEAKER_02

And you had to accept a new reality.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Actually, very recently I've had to shift my perspective again. I think that I will be working on that for a long time. So it's been a year now that I knew for certain that that ex-girlfriend from high school he is in a relationship with her. I found out when my kids told me they went to the pumpkin patch last year. I used to be very good friends with her sister. They visited us in DC. So I knew when my kids said her kids' names, I knew. It was devastating. Which part was devastating? As soon as he said it, the next day I had asked there was something going on with them. And he essentially told me I was crazy. And I was like, okay. His sister had asked if there was somebody else. I'm very good friends with his sister. She was like, he says there's no one else. Um so I don't know the timeline of everything. I'll never get a true answer. This was like the fifth or sixth betrayal, and to find out again in such a cruel, painful way from my children, and then to like have to be strong and fail. And fail at being strong in that moment. He wouldn't even tell me about it. He wouldn't even confirm what I knew. I mean, I I went and hid in my son's room and I cried, but it was like an ugly cry, you know, those bad cries. Yeah. And the kids were here. So that sucks. We're never gonna be okay. Things have happened subsequently, and I have lost a lot of respect for him. I still think we could have built something where we could have like this joint, not like not like we should hang out, like have a barbecue or something, but like be at events together and it'd be fine. That will not happen. Because we've tried.

SPEAKER_02

So you've you've experimented and tried to do this.

SPEAKER_00

I asked for something leading up to I knew she would be there. He lied to me about the things before, and then I got there, and I'm like, oh, that was a lie. Okay, it's terrible. Um, and I had just said, Hey, I know she's gonna be there, like that's great. She is essentially a mother figure, but she lacks any respect to me, and I had just asked, Hey, I know it's your weekend, I know this is like a big event for my girls. Like, if I'm with the kids, can I just have a moment with the kids and then y'all can do whatever you want to do? She just wouldn't back off. Like, I had to take my son away from her just so I could see him. So it's not gonna be that yeah, what I had hoped we could have. Like, I can do some work, I can forgive, but I can't if they're not going to give it back. So I'm figuring that out right now, like literally in real time. Like in real time last weekend, had conversations with my sister-in-law, and I was like, oh man, I didn't realize it was like this bad. I'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_02

You're strong. You've figured out how to live all over the world. I am delusional. You have made it to the other side.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I've been divorced for over a year, legally divorced.

SPEAKER_02

What resources or support did you utilize or lean into to get through like the worst of the worst days?

SPEAKER_00

I am not blessed with a supportive set of parents. I'm very blessed with a sister who is beyond cool and has taken all of my phone calls, has told me when I am wrong in a loving way.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't always feel loving, but yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um she's amazing. I've had my sister. I have to be honest, I have not relied on my friends as much as I probably could have. A lot of that is myself, a lot of that is trying and not feeling great in it because nobody can understand.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because you you did share that your friends have never gone through this before.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, everyone's married.

SPEAKER_02

Everyone's married. Being in Atlanta rather than Bentonville, I found women who had gone through it before, and it was so helpful for them to just be like, you're in the worst part of it. Just know it gets better.

SPEAKER_00

I but did not have I had just like, well, we can pray, and you guys can figure this out. Like, no, you don't understand. He doesn't love me and he lives in DC. Um, I had a great therapist, she was lovely, but with divorce, you change insurance, and I've had to change insurance now several times. But now I was literally just looking up a therapist when you pull him in.

SPEAKER_02

I think everyone I've talked to so far has said therapy with that question.

SPEAKER_00

I think therapy and walking, I did a lot of reading. Love some self-help books. I read them a lot when I was in England too, because I felt hopeless. I love Brene Brown, um, walking, your the movement of your eyes, physical activity, being outside, like I walked so much. Yeah. Honestly, listening to podcasts, things that I like, things that make me laugh. Yeah. Like the finding of myself again, which is hard. I think anyone who has children when you're going through motherhood. It's very hard. And I told him this. You did the hard thing and you said that we needed a divorce. Like you did the hard thing and we made it happen. We needed to split. Do I wish it had happened differently? Absolutely. Because I'm the one who got hurt the most in it. But I think the beauty and what I'm finding in my journey through divorce is that it is forcing me to be me. My kids went to their dads today. I will not see them until Monday. What am I gonna do with myself? Anything you want. It was terribly hard at first. I'm three years into this alone time, but I'm I'm happy alone. I don't even need to do anything.

SPEAKER_02

This Sarah who is finding herself. Who is she compared to previous? Well, I'm I'm on like Sarah 6.0.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

There's been many, many iterations. Okay, uh, another one. What do you love about Sarah 6.0?

SPEAKER_00

This Sarah laughs. England Sarah didn't laugh. I didn't realize that I hadn't been laughing until I laughed. This Sarah dances and sings. I am able to enjoy my children for who they are. And I don't know that I would have had that gift if I were still with the fog of marriage on me. I've really like gotten into doing things for me.

SPEAKER_02

So how have you prioritized or maintained your health and wellness?

SPEAKER_00

So I work out like five times a week. I can walk right now. I couldn't do that for a little bit. Seeing the change in my body and then knowing that I can be powerful, even with MS, like being middle-age. I'm so excited for 40. Are you 40 yet? No, I don't turn 40 till June. You are so young. I'm we're the same age! Because I'm thinking back to when we were like turning 21 and you were like the last one.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I am the baby. Yes. Yeah. Like Abby can't go to the real bar because she's not 21. Yes, you're right there.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I'm ready. I am pumped.

SPEAKER_02

To turn 40? Yes. Why? What's on the other side of 40 for you?

SPEAKER_00

Nothing or everything. Well, that's it. I think that the 30s were so rough. It was so hard. And I don't care.

SPEAKER_02

You're like, I'm closing this chapter on 30 and I'm gonna hit 40.

SPEAKER_00

I'm ready. Mentally, I'm ready. I still sometimes can't believe that I've been through all of this stuff. And so I'm like, whoa, I'll remember something. I'm like, that happened. That was bonkers. Crazy. But now I feel so much more in control. I had no control. I'm not like a control freak. I don't really have control because it's like life is you know, but like I feel like I have more of a say. My voice, I don't put up with it. I don't. And I will say things now I would have never said before. I stand up for myself. When I get to my point, no, we're done. And I've got the receipts to show you that I've tried and I'm done.

SPEAKER_02

This 6.0 Sarah, she went through some shit. And deep core values crystallized for her going through all this.

SPEAKER_00

I wrote them down. Yeah. Oh consult my list. I asked my daughter actually. Oh phone a friend? I did because I was like, oh man, what is a value?

SPEAKER_02

Right, ChatGPT. What is a value?

SPEAKER_00

I was like, I'm writing my mission statement. So I asked my middle daughter. We had a great conversation. So thank you very much. We had such a fun time. So my core values, humor. If you can't laugh, I don't want to be around you. If I can't laugh, I don't want to be there. Peace. I will choose peace over everything. I have been kicking things to the curb, left and right, because it doesn't bring peace. Boundaries, I'm big on that. Self-advocacy. We'll ask doctor's questions. I wouldn't have done that before. I will speak up in meetings. My voice is so much louder now. Turns out I actually have a lot to say. I know we're doing a podcast, and maybe this is silly, but like people respect what I have to say, apparently. Yeah. I have no idea until I started speaking up. And just accepting people for who they are.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, my eyes just got big. Accepting that people are flawed humans. Right. That make mistakes and do things that you will never understand.

SPEAKER_00

I cannot understand it. I I preach it to my children. We cannot control them. We can only control ourselves. Just accepting that the way somebody reacts to something, that is not about me. And quite honestly, it has changed my perspective on parenting because sometimes I lose my shit. And you know what? It has nothing to do with my children. It has everything to do with me in that moment. And then I say to myself, I need to chill out. Like our reactions and other people's reactions have so much to do about them. You know, this whole divorce journey, how this happened, says nothing about me. Nothing. I was wanting to be so kind. I wanted to control so that we could have this kind thing so that I could have the nicest divorce. I cannot control him. I have quotes in my my room. When they go low, we go high. You know, speak up even when your voice shakes. I want my daughters to know that their voice matters. I want them to know that they don't have to do anything for anybody else, even for me. They don't have to make me happy. They need to make themselves happy.

SPEAKER_02

I just listened to a podcast with the author from Codependent No More. I forget her name. I actually need to read that. She's so good. She said, You will never be happier in a relationship than you are with yourself. And it was like, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

But I think I grew up just trying to make everyone happy, and then that's just what I kept doing.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't want my children to at the sacrifice of you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I don't want that. So those are my core values.

SPEAKER_02

Those are gifts in and of themselves. Like being able to know what those are that are important to you. What other gifts or opportunities did your divorce bring you?

SPEAKER_00

The opportunity to be present with my children. My ex-husband is not actually a real single parent. He has built-in help. He's got a different situation. I truly, I have no family here. I have very little friends. So I'm I'm on my own here. The gift that's given me is that I do have these off days where I can focus on all the logistical bullshit of parenting and being a grown-up and medical appointments and all those sorts of things when my children are not around. And so I try to really see my kids when they're here. To be present with them. Not always successful because they are very distracted by their lives, but that is a gift that I've come to realize. It's hard to come to that. Realizing that that time without your kids is a gift. Say more about that. Well, it it offers me the time to do the grunt work, it offers me time to be me. Because when you have your kids home, it's not you. Your mom. And it's all about them. Like I just spend the time driving a lot, you know. It's a gift to be able to have balance. Because I would not have been balanced.

SPEAKER_02

I hear that from several moms.

SPEAKER_00

It sounds you feel terrible saying it. And I miss my children terribly. I miss out on so many things. But I am really trying to look at it as a gift, trying to see the benefit to it.

SPEAKER_02

And the benefit would be that you're not distracted from other things when your kids are here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like I still do laundry and stuff when they're around. Like we do chores together. I don't do everything when they're not here because they do need to learn life skills. But like if I'm feeling big emotions, if I'm feeling big feelings, I try to really feel them on the weekends by myself. With my MS, I really need downtime. I've learned the gift of doing nothing. If my body needs me to lay, I can lay and no one needs me. And it's it's a gift. And it's probably not a feeling of guilt. I feel a little guilt, but I'm I'm Catholic.

SPEAKER_02

That's just inherent.

SPEAKER_00

That's just coming regardless. So but yeah, I just try to look at it as a gift. Be ready for them when they come home.

SPEAKER_02

Right. It's almost like you're recharging so that you can be more present with them when they're here.

SPEAKER_00

But I wouldn't have had that. You would be always on all the time. And with my MS, I would have been extra depleted. So I think that I've been able to maintain my health better by having this forced balance. That's a good reframe. It took a bit. It's forced me to like I think my friends who are with their children every day, then when they do have the empty nest, they're gonna be, I think, not as prepared. Whereas my children have a whole separate life and I don't speak to them at all. Mm-hmm. Might be my delusion speaking, but I think I'm going to be prepared for that empty nest when they go away because I've had these slowly be integrated into that.

SPEAKER_02

A positive reframe? That's the point of the podcast. Bitter or better. And you could very easily be bitter about the situation and how it went down. But through work, have taken this better perspective.

SPEAKER_00

I just think it's kind of hysterical.

SPEAKER_02

The whole thing is funny. Funny is one word for it, yeah. Between our stories. It is crazy. Crazy enough to start a podcast about.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, like, called off your wedding, went off to Vegas, got married, went all over the world, came back to America, and had a phantom divorce. Like nobody Phantom Divorce. But like none of my friends have ever had ever met him. This guy doesn't even exist, does he? No. I'm just kidding. I mean, but that's been the joke. Nobody had ever even met him, and then I'm they called off this wedding from this person, nobody's ever met, and then I married him, nobody was there, they watched it on the internet, and I'm like, oh well now we're getting divorced, nobody's even met him.

SPEAKER_02

That was a good summary. So in our last question, yeah. This podcast is about helping other people, which is why you also agreed to do this. What do you want to leave people with or hope people take away from hearing the story?

SPEAKER_00

You're not crazy. He did that. It will get better. You can be mad. You can be so mad. But don't be mad forever. That is not where we want to be. We want to go high. But we can be mad because we have to feel that. Go for a walk. Listen to something that makes you happy. Listen to mad music. Listen to slutty music. Listen to sad music, but not too much sad music. And then listen to dance music. Music and walking, it is therapy. Podcasts or TV shows that make you laugh. Therapy. Find a friend. So I've learned you can just tell people that you want to be their friend, and they will be your friend. You can just tell people, like, oh, I'm would you like to be my friend? And they're like, you guys can just be friends that way. You can just go to your neighbor's house and be like, I'm not doing anything.

SPEAKER_02

You like Brene Brown. One of my favorite Brene Brown quotes is vulnerability is the last thing we want to show ourselves, but the first thing that we look for in other people.

SPEAKER_00

I don't want to be friends with somebody who can't be vulnerable. I don't want to be a partner with anybody who can't be vulnerable. I like to show my vulnerability straight up because if you can't take me that way, why not? It's just not worth it. And that can't be real with you. Like, I just don't want to. I did that for a long time. And it's okay to hibernate at home. But you you can leave. And nobody's looking at you. Most people don't care. Your friends care, but like the world, they don't even know.

SPEAKER_02

They don't care that you're at the restaurant by yourself eating dinner.

SPEAKER_00

No, and it's okay to cry at that restaurant. I love it. It's okay. It's fine. It's okay to cry in your walks. Also. It's okay to laugh on your walks. It's okay to do whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's okay to feel the feelings. It's great. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for sharing your glory. You have that divorce Kevlar about you. So that we've earned baby. We've earned it. Well, thank you again. Yes, thanks for coming up here.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for listening to the door.