Ep. 8 - Blindsided and Relieved: Why I’m Grateful He Had an Affair

A 24-year marriage can end in a single sentence. Nicole hears it in marriage counseling when her husband stands up, walks out, and comes back to admit he’s been having an affair. What follows isn’t a neat breakup story; it’s the messy middle: numb shock, control as a coping mechanism, protecting the kids from the blast radius, and figuring out how to survive when your support system is thin and your whole life just moved cities. 

We talk through the long runway that leads to that moment: early red flags that get excused, the pressure of long distance years, substance abuse scares, grief that curdles into anger, and the feeling of walking on eggshells inside your own home. Nicole shares how tennis became a lifeline, giving her a place to breathe and a community that knew her as herself, not as part of a couple. We also get honest about emotional abuse, covert narcissism, and why trusting actions over words can save you years of confusion. 

Then we get practical. Nicole’s best divorce advice is blunt: never give up control of your finances. She explains the power of knowing every account, password, and policy, plus why a separate “pin money” account can be true protection. She also breaks down what she wishes she’d done differently in mediation and a DIY divorce, especially getting promises in writing and thinking long term about child support, alimony, and the real cost of raising kids. 

If you’re navigating divorce recovery, healing after infidelity, or rebuilding confidence after a high conflict relationship, this story is for you. Subscribe for more real divorce stories, share this with a friend who needs peace, and leave a review so more people can find us.

Transcript

Welcome And What This Show Is

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce and resilience, the podcast that gets real about the messy middle of divorce and what it takes to come out stronger on the other side. I'm your host, Abby England, marketer, national board certified health and wellness coach, and author of the upcoming book, Bitter or Better, and I've personally earned my divorce Kevlar. This podcast isn't legal advice. It isn't tips and tricks and don't forgets and hacks and how-tos. There's plenty of other podcasts out there interviewing lawyers, therapists, accountants, all sorts of divorce scientists. This podcast is raw, real conversations with everyday people who have jobs, kids, responsibilities, commitments, and yet they've weathered the heartbreak, rebuilt their lives, and found unexpected strength along the way. Because while divorce can break you, it can also make you better. You are not alone. Let's hear someone else's story and see what resonates. Okay. I'm so excited to be here in our new podcast studio. I feel like I should have brought champagne for this for that reason to celebrate, but then also because we might want to drink. Because it's seven o'clock.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I'm not going to lie. I had a drink before I came.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Good for you. Good for you. I should have poured me some limoncello while I was getting ready and you know pregamed a little bit. But if you would just introduce yourself to our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

My name is Nicole Ramsor, and I met our awesome host, Abby, at tennis, and we bonded over our divorces.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yes. The way we met was the same day that I found out that we had that similar story. We were like warming up in tennis, and there's two on one side of the court, two on the other side of the court. And one of the girls was like, Abby, how'd you like, why'd you move to Atlanta? And I was just like, oh, for my ex-husband's job, and he had an affair at work, and I got left here. And you were like, Me too. I was like, oh. I need to hear your story. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

We definitely bonded over that very strange coincidence. Not a lot of people can say they met that way.

unknown 2:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

That's what makes it so special.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Thank you for being here and for opening up on this chapter of your life. We can laugh about it now.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Because you're a few years out from it.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yes. So my divorce was final in December of 2020. Not only did the whole world shut down by the pandemic, but I also got divorced and I had only been in Atlanta for about a year and a half. It was a lot at once. Yeah. Also had shoulder surgery, lost my grandmother. Like 2020 was a horrible year, but the divorce ended in December. So it was great to have that as the final chapter for 2020. And then 2021 opened up lots of fun things.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Oh, okay. We'll talk about the fun things. Let's maybe get through the hard things first so that we can talk about the fun things. Yeah, that was a really tough year, it sounds like on a number of accounts. A divorce is traumatizing in and of itself. What made you agree to say yes to come on and share your story?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

There's so much stigma around divorce. There really shouldn't be, because I feel like people now really maybe aren't meant for long-term relationships. And for a while I was really nervous to tell my parents when I was going through it, just because my ex had a great relationship with my mom. And it was a it was that shame thing too. And I was like, there's nothing to be ashamed of. I didn't do anything wrong. And it's life. If I can make somebody else's experience or make somebody else's feelings feel validated, then why the fuck not?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

We all want to feel validated in our stories. And you've done that to one, at least one. And she's sitting here across from you.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I just feel we should all be strong. And it's a scary thing. You should never feel like you're doing it by yourself. If anyone listening to this is questioning whether they want to get divorced, whether they should get divorced, or maybe not even divorce, but just I need to get out of whatever situation I'm in. If they hear this and feel like, okay, this woman was married for 24 years and she did it, why can't I do it? That was my reason.

Falling In Love And Early Red Flags

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Take us back. Let's rewind the clock and help set the stage.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

We met when I was 20 years old. I was a junior in college and he was a first-year law student up at Syracuse. He was like larger than life, big man on campus. We had mutual friends in common. I just thought he was this really magnanimous magnanimous personality and a lot of fun. I actually was dating somebody else when we met. We met six months before we started dating through mutual friend. He'd been asking me out through my friend, and I didn't know because I never, my roommate, I never saw her. So we ran into each other. He's like, You're too good for me. You can't go out with me. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And we realized that I wasn't getting his messages, and I don't think he really believed me. So we started dating, and that was it. This guy, he was so into me. He was so great. We planned all these romantic dates in college. Everyone's having fun. And it's just a really good fit. And then I go to Europe for almost 10 months, my senior year of college, and he came to visit me and he was writing me letters. I would get five letters a week from this guy. And I was like, oh my God, that's so romantic, right? He's so great. And then when I got back, I graduated and he still had law school and we had a long-distance relationship. I was living in New Jersey and then I moved to DC. And he was still in law school. And then he graduated and he was living in Delaware, and I was in DC. So it was a couple hours distance. But he finally was like, we need to be in the same place. We've had this long-distance relationship for three years. We really need to be in the same place. And I was like, I don't know. I have this great job, right? I was working for ATT and I was in DC, and there was always stuff to do, and there was always things going on, and it was really just starting my career. And he was like, we really need to be together. He's like, I can't move to DC because he was clerking for his job. So I was like, okay. And at the time, ATT had offered a buyout package and it was a really great package. I was 24. They threw a ton of money at me. And then I have this guy saying, Oh, if you move here, we're going to get engaged. And I was like, Oh, okay, this is great. This is everything that I thought I wanted, right? We had had a couple of issues when we were dating, but I really chalked it up to long distance. We weren't in the same place. We were on different pages or whatever. So I took a buyout package. I moved to Wilmington, Delaware when I was 24 years old. You can't see Abby's face right now, but it's like mortified. And it was a great place to be if you were married with children or middle-aged, which I was neither.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah.

Marriage And Motherhood Then Addiction Appears

SPEAKER_00 7:09

And my mother-in-law was super clingy. So we get engaged. I lived there for a year, and I was like, this place is horrible. Nothing against Wilmington, Delaware for anybody listening. It's a really pretty place, but it just wasn't where I wanted to be. I had a terrible job. And I said, listen, we need to figure our life out because I don't see myself being comfortable staying here forever. Based on his job, we picked Boston or San Francisco. We ended up in Boston. Things were good, but now I'm planning a long-distance wedding. So we're getting married in New Jersey. This is the first time when we moved to Boston that we were actually cohabitating. He had never lived alone before, other than college, that doesn't really count. So there was a little bit of a adjustment. And again, I chalked it up to us sort of figuring this stuff out. I wasn't working when we moved to Boston. So there was a little bit of a financial pull because it wasn't a cheap city. We worked it out. And hindsight, there was a lot of, there was a lot of red flags. And I again just ignored them. I was super young and I didn't know myself. I didn't know really him. I only knew what he portrayed. So we got married. Fast forward to mid-2000s, I get pregnant. I had gotten a really great job, similar to the job I had in DC, but it was like super high. There was a lot. It was a lot of pressure. When I got pregnant, I knew I always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. And that was one of the things that we both had agreed on because both of our mothers were stay-at-home moms, and that was very important to us. We had very good alignment of our family values. So we left Boston and moved to New Jersey. And then things were coming up. I found out that he had a substance abuse problem, which I knew a little bit of, but I didn't know the full extent of it until there was one night I had to take him to the ER and found out that he almost OD'd on cocaine. That was a shock to me. I was like, what have I got myself into? But at that point, I had two kids. I had just gotten my real estate license because I wanted to still keep active, even though that wasn't my primary focus. Fast forward to he got himself together. I, in my mind, I'm like, okay, this is just marriage. It's not all fun. You have ups and downs and you work through it. We went to counseling. We admittedly probably could have gone to more counseling, but it just with the kids being little and life, and he got this great job that he was traveling a lot, that the counseling sort of petered out and things got better. Looking back, he got better at masking. He was working for a German company. So for the next 15 years, he was in Germany, not consecutively, but for two and a half to three weeks out of the month, at least one or two days a week, he would go to Germany. I yeah, it was actually great.

unknown 10:03

Yeah.

Travel Life And The Calm Before Collapse

Grief And A Midlife Spiral

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Because I had my life, we had the kids, and then when he was home, he was fun dad, he was fun husband. We would go out and then I would joke to people. I'm like, and I was doing the finances, I would joke. I'm like, the money adds up, so I really don't care what he's doing. You know, he could have a whole nother family, but I'm like, the money added up. So he I really didn't think that. It could be a German family, but it could maybe she had the money, but all I know is his paycheck matched and everything else. In 2016, his mom passed away. Like right before that happened, this company was saying that they wanted him to be overseas more. And his mom always had health issues, and he just didn't want to. And it really was hard. I didn't want him to either at that point. So he ended up taking a buyout package. So he was home, and then his mom passed away. That was probably the pivotal moment when everything started to go to hell. He had midlife crisis, went out and bought this stupid, ridiculous car, had been drinking. And I guess I forgot, somewhere in there in our history, he he got a DUI, so he'd gone to rehab, and he'd he swore he would never do coke again, but it was the drinking and pot smoking or whatever. And he was like, I don't have a problem. Got the DUI. And when his mom passed away, that was really when he lost his what I call her his anger. We were also living together again a hundred percent of the time. That was a lot because I had the life. I played tennis, even though I sold real estate, I really was a housewife. I volunteered and did a lot of stuff at my kids' school, maybe had a couple of real estate deals a couple times a month. I was having lunch, doing a really nice lady of leisure life. And he was now looking for me to be his source of entertainment. I was like, yeah, we could do stuff, but I got other stuff to do, and I don't want to be your sole sense of entertainment. He got really upset. Definitely there was acting out. So then he gets a job and we moved to Atlanta. It was a little bit of a source of contention with the family because my daughter was a junior in high school and she didn't really want to move. So he was commuting for a year. Again, that was great for me. I'm like, oh, finally he's out of the house. I got my life back. I don't have to be on as a wife 24-7. So we moved to Atlanta in 2018. My daughter goes to college. My son's starting high school, new school. I've given up yet another career because I'd been established as a real estate agent for 15, 16 years. And I'm moving to a place where I have no support system. I knew one person and I hadn't really seen her since high school. We weren't really super close. It was hard. And then I was also starting menopause, like I was in perimenopause. So there was like a whole it's a perfect shitstorm. I was gonna say shit. You couldn't have anything else on that plate. It was hard. And then his dad passed away that December of 2018. And then his grandmother. So now he's lost his three, and I'm not making excuses by any means because there's no excuses, but he lost three very important people to him, and he went off the rails. When we moved here, we would do some stuff together, but we didn't do a lot. We didn't make friends together as a couple. We would go out to dinner, but it was the two of us. It was very, very much again separate. In order for me to find something of my own, I started playing tennis and I just joined tennis drills and would hang out. I wasn't working, so that was also stressful. We hadn't sold our house in New Jersey, also stressful. And then we did and was going back and forth and looking for a place here. We ended up renting a house for a year. I'm so thankful that we did that. Whatever reasoning sign that was out there for us not to buy a house down here, it was great. Because shortly thereafter, he starts saying that I'm not happy, you're not there for me, I need more from you, and I don't feel passion anymore. And I was like, I'm struggling too. I'm like, I have all of this other shit going on. I'm like, I don't see any support from you either. Then we decided to go into counseling in 2019. He needed grief counseling because he never really processed his mother's death, let alone his father and his grandmother. And he was so adamant that he was fine and it wasn't, but literally, I would come home and just the heaviness in the house was suffocating. I never knew who I was gonna deal with. I'd take my son to school and I'd see his car in the drive, and he'd be like, oh God, I gotta keep driving. Cause I don't want I don't want to be with this guy. I just don't want to be with him because I know he's gonna be just this like heavy wet blanket. Suffocating is the only word I could think of, because it was really a lot. We go to counseling and we meet this great counselor, and I was like, I really think he needs to process some other stuff because yeah, we have issues. I'm not denying that at all because we haven't really lived together that often for extended periods of time. And now here we are in order to rely on each other, and it's not really great.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So you're having to be like each other's everything to each other.

Atlanta Move And Feeling Isolated

Counseling And The Appointment Fight

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I I'm very independent and I don't like that in general. Like in any relationship that I'd ever been in, I like my independence. I want to be able to go and do what I want to do or have a little bit of flexibility where I'm like, I don't have to check in with somebody else. The therapist was like, Yeah, I can see why you would think that he would need grief counseling. And he was like, Oh, I don't think so. And and she's what bothers you about your wife? And he's I just want somebody that I I want to have fun, I want to have somebody that I can date. And because I'd been saying, let's block out Thursday afternoon and Friday night or whatever it was. I'm like, we'll do stuff together. And he's like, Why does it have to be an appointment? I'm like, it doesn't have to be an appointment, but I'm like, I got stuff to do. Like, you're busy, I'm busy. What is the problem with saying Friday night date night or Thursday night date night? I'm like, everybody does it. I'm like, why are you so opposed to it? But he he was like, I want to date and I want to go have fun. And the therapist looked at him and she's I know 15 guys that would jump at the chance to date your wife. They're like, You she's intelligent, she's beautiful, she's kind. She pretty much wanted to say, What the fuck's your problem? But she couldn't because it was marriage counseling. At least that was my interpretation of it. I could be wrong. So we ended up deciding to have her be his personal counselor. And then another woman in the practice was going to be our marriage counselor. So we got him to agree to that. We were going to do this whole survey about where we need to work on our marriage. So we did this whole survey, and I happened to be away the weekend that we were doing it. And so he's texting me and he's stressing me out. Did you do it? And I was like, Yeah, I did it. I'm like, it was stressful, but I did it. And he's like, I don't know if I can do it. And I was like, Oh, what's the problem? Either we do it or we don't. And I was still, I was like apprehensive because I was like, does this mean we're getting a divorce? In my mind, I still hadn't come to that decision because I really thought that we were just in a low period, right? They happened. I get home on a Monday night, and Tuesday is our therapist meeting. So we had submitted everything Sunday night. So she reviewed it, and Tuesday we're going to therapy. So I go to therapy, we met each other because he was coming from work and he was like outside and he was all sweaty. And I was like, what's going on? And I was going to, we had a playoff tennis match after therapy. Like, never a good idea. I was like, what's going on? He's like, I don't know. I'm just, I'm he's like, I'm all worked up. He's like, I think I'm I don't know what's happening. So we go sit in therapy, and literally he's sweating bullets. And I was like, oh my God, is he on something? That was the first thing I thought of. I'm like, what is I'm like, this is not gonna be good. We're sitting there and she gets out our results, and she was like talking about how this is the foundation to a new relationship and we're gonna be rebuilding. He gets up and leaves. And I was like, Oh. And she's like, What's going on? I'm like, I have no idea. So she's like, Should I go knock on the bathroom door? Do you want to? I'm like, I will. So I'm like, Are you okay? I'm like, oh, come back in. So he comes back in and he's I can't do this. And I was like, What do you mean you can't do this? What today? Again, I'm like, dumb me. And I was like, What do you mean you can't do this? And he is, I haven't been honest with you. I've been having an affair. And I was like, Oh, glad we wasted all this money on marriage counseling. We had always talked about what our lines in the sand would be like, even in the beginning of our relationship. I'm like, there's some stuff that I just won't tolerate. And that obviously was one of them. Looking back on it now, I feel like that he wanted out and he knew that would get me out. That would be it, because otherwise I'd probably still be in a loveless marriage trying to make it work.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Thinking this is just what marriage is. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Thank you. That was a lot. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

No, you set the stage in the context. Things don't just happen overnight. So you took us through that. Really appreciate your honesty and transparency. When that affair bomb was dropped on you, can you take us back to what you were feeling in that moment?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

I literally went numb. And I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Just blindsided.

The Affair Confession In Therapy

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah. Of all the things that I thought that was never, I just never thought that he would be that disrespectful to our life that we had built together. I was 20, he was 23. That's a lot of things. Yeah, you built we went through a lot of shit together. Our families were very close. I was very close to his parents and his sister. He's very close to my family. I really, I went numb. I was like, okay. And I got up and I went to the I went to the bathroom and the therapist knocked on the door and she's like, Are you okay? I'm like, I have to go to a tennis match. I don't know how I'm really supposed to like focus. And she's like, This is what you're gonna do. She's wash your hands, visualize all of this getting washed off and going down the sink and going down the drain, and you go kick ass in your tennis match. And I was like, Okay, I can do that. I didn't go back into the room. He tried to talk to me on the way out, and I was like, I can't talk to you right now. So I did. I went to my tennis match, and I have to say, tennis really saved my life for many reasons. But the women that I met through tennis, they had no idea. It wasn't like Team Nicole. They didn't know us as a couple. They only knew me. It was nice to be able to do something where I didn't have to worry about somebody was gonna ask a question like, oh, how's blah, blah, blah, or how's this, or do you guys want to come for this? But there was none of that. It was great to be able to go and just literally shut my mind off and totally compartmentalize and then not deal with it. Later that night, when I got home, my son was there, so I made dinner. I didn't want to talk to him, but I also didn't want him to not be in the house, as weird as that sounds, because I like I needed to know that he wasn't, not that I cared that he was have like I did care that he was having an affair, but if I told him to get out, I knew I would wonder where was he and what was he doing. That was me exercising control over the situation, being like, I don't want to talk to you, but you have to stay in the house. He was like, I can go stay somewhere. I'm like, no, you can stay here. Weirdly enough, too, we stayed in the same bed for three days. And I just totally, I know, bizarre, right? But again, it was like I needed to know where he was and what he was doing.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Why was that important to you?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

I didn't want to have to wonder because I knew if I couldn't see him, I didn't know what he was doing. And this probably harkens back to the cocaine thing and the DUI. I just worried. And honestly, there were suicidal moments too with him. So I knew that if I could see him, I didn't have to worry about. That. And I could just be mad at him and let him know that I was mad at him by not talking to him and ignoring him. That went on for three days before he finally said, I can't do this anymore. And I was like, okay. We hadn't said anything to our son. And with my daughter being away in college, we weren't the table flipping sort of family. We never really fought in front of them. There might have been tense moments, but that it wasn't like expressive. So it was going to be a shock to them. And I didn't want to do that to my daughter because she's super sensitive. I didn't want to FaceTime her and be like, hey, guess what? We're getting a divorce because it would just come out of nowhere. And my son was 14 at the time. Didn't really want to say anything to him without telling her, because then she'd be upset that she didn't know too. And I was like, oh my God, this is a horrible situation. I was like, hey, I'll leave after he goes to bed and I'll come back in the morning and I'll take him to school. And I was like, okay. So that went on for four months. So this was October that the divorce bomb was dropped. So when my daughter came back for Christmas break, we kept up the charade for two months.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Trevor Burrus Where he would leave at night and then come back in the morning. So your son didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

No, because he was a teenage boy and completely oblivious.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

No, you that's a lot.

Control Survival Mode And Tennis Refuge

SPEAKER_00 23:17

It was a lot. And I would still make dinner and then like we would still have dinner or go out to dinner. Oh, and I forgot to say our anniversary was September 27th. So this divorce bomb happened like the first week of October. So one of the things during marriage counseling, she was like, What are you guys doing for your anniversary? I'm like, I don't know. I keep asking, and he didn't want to do anything. So she's like, You need to go out. So we went out and had the worst fucking dinner for our anniversary. And we didn't say like literally three words. It was so bad. I should have known, you know, that something was really wrong. But again, yeah, you didn't know. I didn't think that it was, you know, broken that. Irretrievably crushed. Not just broken. Crushed. So that went on for two months. And then my daughter came home for Christmas break. We told them both that we were getting divorced and nothing would change. And he even admitted when we told the kids that it was him. He wanted, he wasn't happy. He took the blame and said that he was always going to take care of us and it was always going to be good and we're always still going to be a family. Now, what I didn't know then was that he had already had this girlfriend and she had already met my kids.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Can I ask if he shared with the kids what was the real story? He did not.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

And we had talked about that, and I had said, it's none of their business, and it doesn't serve any purpose for them because I was still trying to protect them from the situation. I don't know if that was the right thing to do, but I said, I'm never going to say anything that puts you in a bad light to them. I'm not going to talk down. That's just not me. You're their dad for life. Just because we didn't work out. Now I'm not an angel, and there were been many a time where I've had to bite my tongue and not say what I'm like, really. But I think at this point, my daughter knows. I'm sure my son does too, but he just doesn't want to say anything. I'm not going to lie to them either. If they flat out ask me, I will say what happened. But if they're not asking, it's really not their business. Again, I didn't want them to think that their father was a piece of shit bag. I don't know if I did the right thing by shielding them throughout their life of the true man that he was. But now they know, and it's not through anything that I've said or done. They now see that their dad is a narcissist. I didn't know that word when I was 20. I didn't know that word when I was 30. I knew it when I was 40, but I didn't know the full extent of it until after the divorce bomb and therapy. I started going to therapy for me with her. And yeah, he's got a lot of narcissistic tendencies. So I started reading up on that. I was like, oh, yes, he he did. And my daughter's had a lot of therapy for other reasons. She sees it. When I, as soon as I said to the kids, I'm like, your dad's a narcissist, she's like, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Aaron Ross Powell In that story, you honored a number of values that was important to you. If you had to name a couple of those values that were important for you to model with your children, what would those values have been?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

You make the best decisions you can at the time. For me, it was important for my kids' relationship with their dad to be intact. And I didn't want it to be an ugly back and forth. I didn't want them to have to choose because they were old. They were 14 and 17 or 14 and 18. I wanted them to still be able to have a good relationship with their dad because we both had good relationships with our dads and still do. And family is very important. I I don't come from a divorced family. He didn't come from a divorced family. Like I said, if it hadn't been for the affair, I would have still been plugging along trying to make it work and not really being true to myself. That I think I did a little bit of a disservice to my kids because I masked a lot of stuff. I internalized a lot of stuff, and I just tried to make everything great. It was hard for them to see that we were getting divorced because they didn't see anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

So they were, in effect, blindsided about it also.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yes, very much. And that was hard. That was really hard. I thought my daughter would be more upset. It took her a little bit longer to process, and she was upset, but my son was like visibly in the moment upset and scared. And I was like, wow, I didn't see that coming. Yeah, they were blindsided. Again, I don't know if that was the right thing to do, but that was the way I I never saw my parents fight. I modeled my relationship after what I saw. And I was like, oh, you take all your fights behind closed doors, you just put a good face forward. But I don't that's not realistic.

Telling The Kids And Protecting Them

SPEAKER_01 28:11

So part of this mission of the podcast is to ask those that have been there, lived through that. If you were going to give advice to someone who was maybe also in a similar situation, or even maybe advice that you could give to yourself back in those days, what what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Everyone's situation is different and every man is different. I think when you're dealing with a narcissist, he said all the right words. All the right words, but his actions never added up to what he would say. And I ignored so many of those signs throughout our relationship. You have to look at the actions because truly actions do speak louder than words. Don't discount your gut. Don't discount your gut because intuition is a very powerful thing. And if you feel like something's not right, you're probably true it's not right. You want to believe the best in that person because you love them and you have this life with them. No one goes into a relationship wanting it to fail, right? So yes, you have to keep an eye on those things, but you can't discount the actions and your intuition.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

And no one goes into a relationship having talked about what the exit strategy is going to be. Aaron Ross Powell So what did you have to do or get in order or learn or prep for the actual divorce process?

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Aaron Ross Powell So my mother had given me some really great advice that I took and then ignored and then picked back up again. And I joked about this earlier. You never want to give up control of your finances. No matter how much of a task it is, like to keep track of, especially if you're commingled. In the late 90s, we commingled because we didn't have anything. We were both poor college students. It didn't even occur to me to have a separate account. I'm dating myself, but you know, back when you had ATM receipts, like the actual paper receipts, and you had to balance your checkbook and quick and was barely a thing. And it was like, oh my God, I'd spend like hours because he wouldn't give me all of his receipts or he'd miss something and I could never get the damn checkbook to balance. I'm like, I can't do this, you do it. And I gave it up. And I had mentioned that in passing to my mother, and she's like, Nicole, you never give up the finances. And I was like, oh, mom, it is such a pain. She's like, don't do it. So I took that back, having been in this relationship for 20 plus years. I knew where all the bodies were buried. I knew all the account numbers. I had all of the paperwork. And I had an account. My mother's you need a it used to be like your bra money or your pin money, like you pin it in your bra. She's like, You need a pin money account. And I was like, What's a pin money account, Mom? She's like, We're gonna open a bank account together. She's you just put some cash in when you have it. And I was like, Oh, okay. And she's and I'll put some cash in when I have it for you. And I was like, Okay. And she's like, You use it for whatever you want. It wasn't a divorce fund by any means. It was just a in case you need it fund that was separate that he had no access to. Didn't he didn't even know about it? I highly recommend having, if you do have your finances co-mingled, or even if you don't, know where the life insurance policies are, know where your his savings, because even if, God forbid, there was an accident and you need to have access to that information just so that you're protected. But financial protection is first and foremost, have an account with a friend if you don't have a family member that you can't open an account with, because money is power. You can't do anything without money. Even if you need to get away from a bad situation, you have that money and you don't have to ask permission or you don't have to be like, oh my God, how am I gonna pay for this? Having that, it made it a lot easier because I knew he wasn't hiding anything. And I knew that he didn't know what I was doing. So that made it a lot easier. He's a lawyer and he did family law. He didn't do that for most of his career, but he knew stuff. But he wasn't vindictive financially in that way until we got divorced. And then it became a control thing. He had to ask me for all of the documents when we were doing the filing because he didn't know anything. He didn't know the passwords, he didn't know anything. And I don't know if a lot of men would be that cavalier now, but I was very fortunate that way because I just knew there was nothing he was hiding financially.

Naming Narcissism And Modeling Values

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Aaron Ross Powell So you gained back control of the finances, which puts you in a position of power and confidence. You still have to have a lawyer, though. What did your legal representation look like?

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Trevor Burrus We ended up doing mediation. I called it the do-it-yourself divorce.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

DIY DIYD, yes.

Trust Actions And Trust Your Gut

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah. And I I don't know if I would recommend it because I feel like I left a lot on the table just because I wanted it to be done. We were very amicable up until the finances. People get real ugly over money. I still wasn't working. I ended up getting a job halfway through our process. And only because I needed some more comfort to know that I'm like, okay, I don't have to rely on whatever settlement or whatever I got. That helped me too. So if you're not working, or if you feel like you shouldn't or you can't work, like you need to do something just to give you that confidence that I can survive this. It's scary as shit. And it was scary as shit because I was in a new place. I didn't have a support system. I was hesitant to tell my friends back in New Jersey. The only good thing about getting divorced down here is like I said, nobody knew us as a couple because it was either you're with me or you don't know me. Um the mediation, it was nice from a financial perspective because we didn't have a lot of legal fees and back and forth, but he did end up bullying me and I left a lot on the table. Not only did he bully me, I also believed him when he said he would do stuff, certain stuff. And I didn't get it in writing. And it's it was too late. Given the fact that I only had one child that was considered a minor, only my son was. There was no child support for my daughter, other than her college tuition, which is not nothing, and her medical bills. But there was no sort of clothing, food, transportation, any of that. So none of those bills were covered. He gave me the bare minimum for my son, and that was only till he was 18. So that was only like two years more after it was all said and done. And then my son's college. But again, we had college funds for the kids, so it's like we'd already talked about doing that. And everything that we did over the years, we did with that in mind that you would always do that. But I left a lot on the table because A, I wanted it to be done. It was COVID. I had shoulder surgery, my grandmother passed away. There was a lot of pressure I felt on myself to just be done with this. And you just get worn down. It's exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

I got the same feedback from people. You just get it done. You get it done as fast as you can. I didn't have kids, thankfully. And I can understand how that just the whole situation is a toll on them. But I didn't feel like just getting it done was worth sacrificing a position that I had. So this feels like a very important time to ask if you could go back, dropped some knowledge bombs on us here. What would you do differently?

Pin Money And Financial Power

SPEAKER_00 35:47

I would get more stuff in writing. I would think a little bit more strategically and long term. I ended up getting alimony because he wouldn't give me a lump sum settlement. We separated our financial assets. So I got half of that. And then I got like 12 years of alimony for half of our married life. But we had some other assets that we hadn't separated yet. And he was like, oh, and when that does, I'll do that, X, Y, and Z. And I didn't get that in writing. And I should have. I also should have asked for child support longer, or at least when the child support runs out, have the alimony kick up a little bit to cover for that. I'm the primary custodian, even though they're for tax purposes, even though they're older. They still live with me. I feed them. Let's transport them wherever they need to go. My son's driving my car, he's on my insurance, he got in a car accident. That was his fault. The insurance skyrocketed. Well, of course, that wasn't a consideration because it was he's almost already paying. My son's an athlete, so he's got a trainer, a nutritionist. None of that is covered. Getting more stuff in writing and thinking about what happens after that next point. Maybe I was a little naive. I'm like, oh, he's gonna look out for us. No, they don't. Don't believe. Don't believe.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

So get it in writing and don't believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Because they wanted it done as much as you do.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Especially if there's someone there waiting in the wings. Uh-huh. Yeah. He got married six months after our divorce was finally.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Good for her.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

That's her problem now. A frequent mantra that I say is I know what I'm getting out of. And she has no idea what she's getting into.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

That is absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

You said this moment or this time it is scary as shit for those reasons. How did you get through it? Like the toughest of days. What tools or support or resources did you utilize to help yourself get through it?

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Aaron Ross Powell Tequila. Tequila, friendships. And seriously, I I'm not a journaler, but my therapist was like, you don't have to because I was like, dear diary. And you have to write this whole thing. I'm like, oh my God, I don't want to do that. And she's like, you don't have to do that. That's not journaling. She's like, you could just write a sentence. She's like, if you just want to write the word asshole 15 times, she's like, just do it. It would get it out. So I wrote my ex a letter. I wrote two letters. I wrote him one letter that I gave him. I didn't want to send it. And I'm like not big on, I don't want anything to ever come back to me. So I was like, I don't know if I want to do that. But he's so irresponsible that he probably threw it away. Or maybe his new wife found it. That'd be great, actually. So I wrote two letters. I wrote one that I gave to him, and then I wrote one for me, and I let everything out. So then I did this journal and I was just a stream of thought. Like I'd write a sentence here or there. If I was having a really hard day, I'd just put it in there. And then she recommended when I felt like it to burn it. Burn the journal? Burn the journal. She's like, rip the pages out and just burn it. She's like, you don't have to, you don't have to read it. You don't have to do anything with it. She's like, just burn it. I found that to be very helpful. I didn't burn it all at once. Some days I just felt like burning shit. So I would do it. So that was really helpful. And I've just felt a lot of pressure with the journal. I still have it because I didn't burn the whole thing. And every now and then I'll write a little something in there. But it's one of those things where I'm like, I gotta get it out of the house. Because if something ever to happen to me and my kids find it, I don't want them to read that because it's really, again, I'm still trying to protect him. I don't know why, but I don't want them to know. Like they see, and I'll I've told them, I'm like, it's been hard and it's a struggle. And my son and I had a really hard conversation when I was working, and he was like, I hate this. I hate what dad did. And I was like, listen, we're fine. I'm gonna be fine, and things are gonna be different, but this is okay. Because I was working a lot trying to get myself reestablished in a corporate America career. And I was putting in a lot of hours. That I thought was really good for them to see. This was life-changing for not only them, but for me and for me to come out of it with a new career. They see me with great friends, they see me going out and doing stuff and traveling. I'm like, that is so important for me that they see that. They see I have boundaries with their dad, they see I have boundaries with them, because my daughter will say, Dad's really blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, I'll listen and feel free to vent. But I'm not gonna give you an opinion. That's what you have your therapist for. But you can always tell me something, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna give you anything because that's your dad. But she knows. She has definitely put the dots together.

Mediation Regrets And Get It In Writing

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Your your children have seen you reestablish your corporate career, surrounded by loving friends who are supportive, um, go out and do things on your own, probably have a whole new level of confidence. I just think about they got to see all that. And what would they see if you guys were still together?

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Ooh, that's a good question. I always had a level of independence. I would go out and do stuff and I would go out on girls' trips, and he never kept me down, but the tone in the house was different. Like I said, you had to walk on eggshells, and dad sometimes had a temper or it's cranky. There's none of that. Our house is so calm. We have fun, we'll go on vacation and it's easy. We all get along, we love to go out to dinner. We we have we laugh, and it's just a completely different vibe. I think if I were still married, they'd probably not see the me that they're seeing now because I do go out a lot as and I do have fun and I like to travel. Sometimes I'll bring them with me, or we'll do stuff together. And I I think they they're happy for me. They're happy to see that I'm not just surviving, but I'm enjoying middle-aged singlehood.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah. You've been through hell, and I think divorce crystallizes our values when we go through or really any traumatic experience. What core values crystallized for you as a result of going through this?

SPEAKER_00 42:42

I think that I realize that I don't have to settle for anything. If I don't feel comfortable in a situation or I feel like I'm not being valued, I know that I can move on. I know that I have the strength to figure my shit out. I will never be put in that position again. I always knew that I was strong. My grandmother that passed away was always like, I never thought you'd be married, and I didn't think you'd be a good mother. And I was like, isn't that a compliment? Family's very harsh. But I get what she said because I always was like, oh, I'm gonna go live in Europe when I was younger. I'm like, I'm gonna travel all the world, I'm gonna have this great career, and I never talked about having kids. Like I always liked kids, but I never talked about having kids, and I never really talked about having a husband. So when I met him and I was like, oh, this is great. I do want to have kids and I do want to get married. And now I'm like back to that woman that I was when I was in my 20s, where I'm like, oh, I'm never doing this again. Because I'm having the fun that I should have been having 30 years ago. I just knowing that I can do this. I'm strong and I don't have to settle. I'm open to new things, but I'm also like, uh take it or leave it.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

You also have the confidence to say, no, not interested.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

So we talked about support and tools and resources. If we get into these rapid fire questions. Okay. What books or articles or written work or whatever it might be maybe especially spoke to you or were especially helpful during this time?

Coping Tools Letters Journal Burning

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Aaron Ross Powell So I think because I didn't know much about narcissism, was instantly drawn to I'm like, what is that? And what does that mean? Because I'm like, I'd read some stuff, I'm like, uh, it wasn't really our relationship. But then I'd read other stuff and I learned about covert narcissism, which is exactly what he was. Like if you were to meet him, oh perfect husband, he's oh, I love my wife, you were great, and blah, blah, blah, blah. But then there's the hidden stuff. And he wasn't physically abusive, but definitely there was emotional abuse. I a hundred percent have PTSD from our relationship. And I mentioned control financially. There's still that. I always worry that the alimony is the payments aren't going to be because he refuses to automate it. So it's a couple days late, and it's super annoying. So I read up on narcissism. And one of the trips I took right after COVID, I went to Greece with a friend, and I was meeting her there. And I met this woman on the plane, and we started talking. And I don't know how it came up. Maybe I said I was just recently divorced, and she was with her husband, but he was in the pod next to us. And I was like, Do you want to switch? I'm happy to switch. And she's no. She's like, I had enough of him and I got these books to read. And she pulled it out, and I happened to see the word narcissist. And I was like, Oh, I'm like, You're married to a narcissist? And she's, he's not. And I'm reading to make sure that he never becomes one.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

It's called preventative maintenance. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

And I was like, oh my gosh. I'm like, I just got out of a relationship. We talked the whole eight-hour flight about that. And she gave me a bunch of podcasts to listen to and some books to read. So that was very helpful because I didn't know. I really, I don't know how I missed that in my, but nobody really talked about that. And so that was very helpful. And really just taking time to think about what I wanted. So I have a bunch of friends that are into alternative medicine, energy healing, and all sorts of woo-woo shit. I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

I'm a health coach. I love it all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

So I did a lot of chakra clearing and I had a lot of attachments. One of the energy healers told me I had attachments, so I was all into doing all of that stuff. And again, I felt better. I I don't know if it helped or not, but mentally it helped me. So uh th that was something else that I found pretty helpful. Now I've gotten out of all of the narcissist stuff because I'm like, it is what it is. I know who he is. I don't need to.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

And you know how to identify one. Yes. I don't believe anybody's I've just talked with a lot of people, and music is a powerful thing. What's your divorce anthem song?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

It's a lovely song by a woman called Martha Wayne Wright, um, Bloody Motherfucking Asshole. That's the name of the song. That's the name of the song.

unknown 47:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

I'll have to it's like bulksy. She sounds all lovely and sweet, but if you really look at the words and it's talking about I'm not pretending anymore. I can do this on my own without you, and you're a bloody motherfucking asshole. It's a really it's a good song. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

It's not very covert there.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

No, I'm really not hiding anymore.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

No, no. This is an odd question. Someone asked me, what gifts or opportunities did your divorce bring you? And I had to stop and think about it and be like, oh, that's interesting. I wouldn't have had a number of experiences this thing not happened. So what gifts or opportunities did your divorce bring you?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

I would say the greatest gift was peace because I literally could breathe in my own home and I didn't have to tiptoe around and I could just relax. Like I felt like I was in such a state of fight or flight for so long. I didn't have that anymore. Like I thought I didn't like Atlanta, but it really had nothing to do with Atlanta. It had to do with inside the house. So that truly was the greatest gift. I did mention that I love to travel and I've been doing a lot of traveling, been to many great places, and we traveled a lot as a couple, but it's traveling without issue. Oh, I want to go here? Great, I'm going here. Let me make sure the dog's okay and the kids are okay. It's just a different level of freedom. And again, you can't buy that. Yeah. The freedom is quite nice.

Peace Boundaries And A Calmer Home

SPEAKER_01 48:47

I told some of my married friends, I get to do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it, however I want, with whomever I want. Exactly. And they're like, oh, that doesn't seem so bad. Exactly. You've given us so many knowledge bombs here today. If you were to leave listeners, or if listeners were to walk away with insights or aha's, what would you want them to walk away with having listened to your story?

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Um I would say trust your gut, don't discount the intuition. Even if you think that your relationship may work, I would still always have that pin money account. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid because being alone is amazing. Being alone and being in peace is priceless. So I have a friend that's going through a situation, and I think it's the fear that's holding her back, but she's miserable. As an outsider looking in, I know what she's going through, and it's so heartbreaking because I want the best for my friend. I'm so happy. I want everybody to be this fucking happy. If she thought that it was gonna work out and she was gonna be happy, I'd be all in. Great, go for it. But when you know in your heart of hearts that it's not right, it's not right, and you shouldn't force something.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

And you just want to be able to almost like take the confidence and the wisdom that you have earned and put it on someone else. But it you almost have to go through it to really understand like it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

It's gonna be okay. It was really hard. And I was definitely scared. Like I said, I'd probably still be there unless he took the choice away. Which am I grateful? Yes. There's no kind of I am. I am. Grateful that He had an affair.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Because that was the out. It became like a non-negotiable at that point. Exactly. No, okay, we're done here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

I was like, well, took that one out. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Now we're off the table. Yeah. Thanks, therapist.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

I'm sorry, I did think of one final question, and it it might be the most one of the most important questions of the podcast. Did you win that tennis match after the therapy session? Hell yeah. Fuck yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Yes. So glad to hear that. And we stayed and drank at um the tennis court for three hours. Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

A little tennis therapy.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Yes, the margaritas were strong.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Well, Nicole, thank you so much for just being open to sharing this. I know it's not easy. You have given us so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Probably too much that I overshare.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

No, I think it's helpful for people to get a peek inside the real stories of what's going on. And that's the mission purpose of this podcast. So thank you so much for doing the assignment.

Learning Narcissism And Woo Woo Healing

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me. And I think that's great that you're branching out and doing this. And all the best to you. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we turn heartbreak into healing and survival into strength. As Brene Brown says, vulnerability is the last thing we want to show, but the first thing we look for in others. That's what this is all about. Real people showing up, sharing their stories, and reminding the rest of us that we're not alone. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might need to hear it too. And remember, you have a choice better or better. See you next time for more real stories, real people, and real resilience.