Ep. 4 - Necessary Endings: Breaking the Silent Treatment

Heartbreak can be loud, but clarity often arrives in the quiet. We sit down with Monica to follow her honest path from early sparks to a marriage defined by emotional withdrawal and the constant tension of walking on eggshells. When a cross-country move created space, she finally saw the pattern clearly: hope without progress keeps you stuck. With that shift, she chose a necessary ending, faced the fear of filing, and navigated the messy middle, debt, taxes, stigma, and the surreal drama of serving papers that finally landed thanks to a building-wide fire alarm.

What carries a person through the longest months? Monica shares the small, powerful tools that kept her grounded: weekly massages to restore human touch and lower stress, mystery novels for escape, long walks by Seattle’s water, and a reading list that reframed what change requires. She found a money coach, wrote her money autobiography, and built a plan that led her out of debt and into financial peace. Then she discovered the deeper magic of tidying: over one focused weekend, she sorted her home by one question, does this spark joy? and felt her nervous system exhale. That practice evolved into training as a Marie Kondo consultant and launching a business helping women in transition make room for what’s next.

Across therapy, group work, and real-world setbacks, Monica distilled values that now guide her life: resilience when timelines stretch, curiosity instead of bitterness, resourcefulness in seeking help, and compassion for herself and for others whose marriages we can’t see from the outside. If you’re in the fog right now, her story offers steady ground: you are not alone, endings can be healthy, and a calmer home can quiet your mind while you rebuild. Listen for practical ideas, humane perspective, and proof that the life you want has room to breathe.

If this conversation moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find these stories.

Transcript

Welcome And Purpose

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Bitter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce and Resilience, the podcast that gets real about the messy middle of divorce and what it takes to come out stronger on the other side. I'm your host, Abby England, marketer, national board certified health and wellness coach, and author of the upcoming book, Bitter or Better, and I've personally earned my divorce Kevlar. This podcast isn't legal advice. It isn't tips and tricks and don't forgets and hacks and how-tos. There's plenty of other podcasts out there, interviewing lawyers, therapists, accountants, all sorts of divorce scientists. This podcast is raw, real conversations with everyday people who have jobs, kids, responsibilities, commitments, and yet they've weathered the heartbreak, rebuilt their lives, and found unexpected strength along the way. Because while divorce can break you, it can also make you better. You are not alone. Let's hear someone else's story and see what resonates. If you would, please interview your or interview. Here we go. I can do that. If you would, please introduce yourself to our listeners. I'm Monica Parker. Can you say anything else? No, that's yeah, that's great. And we know each other just through life. Yes. Uh huh. Yeah. And it seems like after we met, I just kept seeing you at random places, which is it's I think that's how Atlanta works. That's true. A little bit of serendipity there, too, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know much about your story. Um that when we met for coffee that first time, um, the topic of divorce came up. And so I was like, oh, I definitely want to talk more with Monica about her story. Because you have an interesting life story as well. And so please interweave that into our conversation. Sure. But first, I don't know you that well. You don't know any of our listeners. Oh, why on earth did you agree to sit down with a mere stranger and tell this chapter of your life? Well, I thought about it from the perspective of when I was going through my divorce. I felt very alone. And I think this is a helpful way to share with other people that they're not alone. They're not the only ones going through this. I think, too, I also felt like it was never going to end. And so now being on the other side of it, I wanted to be a voice in the wilderness, so to speak, for people who are in the thick of it. Okay. Sounds like we're gonna have a long story here today. It felt like it was never gonna end. Yes. Um, so maybe let's rewind the clock. How did you guys meet? What attracted you to each other? What was the marriage like? Kind of take us through those beginning chapters. Okay. And I'll say too, I may forget all of the questions. So let me do the first one and then you can tell me what the episode's worth. That's that menopausal memory loss creeping in there. Let's see. So the way we met, I had a book published and I decided to throw a party to celebrate. My event planner asked me if she could invite single guys to attend. I was single at the time. I said, sure, great idea. She invited this guy, and it turns out another friend of mine who was at the party knew him as well. And she actually introduced the two of us at the party. We met there and sparks flew and swept me off my feet. And then maybe four years later, we got married. Okay, sidebar, publishing a book is a milestone in and of itself. What is the name of your book? The name of the book is The Unhappy Lawyer Roadmap Defining Meaningful Work Outside of the Law. I am a lawyer by trade, but had stopped practicing at the time. And I was a career coach working with lawyers who didn't want to practice but weren't sure what they wanted to do. So the book was an outcome of that work and it was super exciting to be published for sure. Okay, so you had this kind of launch party for the book, and then you met this man and sparks flew, as you put it. So what happened next? Yeah. So we dated, as I said, for a significant period of time. I would say there were many things about him that attracted me to him, from his sense of humor to this charisma that he had. He came across as a gentle giant, just a thoughtful person, a good listener, just someone I could feel safe and secure with. And I was excited that I found him. I was close to 40 at that point and wondering if I'd ever meet anyone that I wanted to marry. And it felt a bit like, okay, this was meant to be. We met through my book party. And so we had a really fun time dating. And again, it just seemed like he was the one. So eventually we got married. So you get married. What is the marriage like? And maybe take us through logistically, where are you? Yeah. So we were living in Atlanta, Georgia at the time, and I owned a condo. And so he moved into my condo. And I would say we had that initial honeymoon period. Things were good. But I noticed over time that we seemed to go through these phases. There were phases where things were great. We were clicking on all cylinders. We communicated well, we laughed together, just had a very good partnership. And then there were these other times where it felt like we just weren't on the same page. And I came to realize that he was emotionally disconnecting during those times. And emotional connection is really important to me. And I'm very sensitive to it. So I was noticing that happening. And then I noticed over time I was getting more and more anxious about that. When was that going to happen? If we were in a good phase, when was the bad phase going to come? And was there anything I could do so that it wouldn't happen? So I got very caught up in trying to predict when those times would happen. And again, was there something that I was doing to cause them? And it just kept happening. And it seemed as if over time we were having more and more of those bad phases. You can say pass to any question here. I'm curious if you're willing to share a little bit more about what these bad times were like. Sure. And again, this might be helpful for a listener. Essentially, something would happen. I would do something. And again, it wasn't that it was always the same thing. Maybe I forgot to do something or neglected to listen at a time that he felt was important. What he would do is he would give me the silent treatment, essentially. He would disappear into his own world, into another room, or he would leave the home. I would notice that he was connecting with his friends or his family, but we weren't experiencing that same kind of connection. And then eventually that phase would pass and he'd be back to normal, his normal, happy, good-humored self. But that's what was happening is those periods of silent treatment. And so it felt a punishment for something, but I didn't know what it was specifically that I was doing, or even if I tried doing things differently, it didn't seem to help. Okay. It sounds a bit like walking on eggshells, or how how might you describe it? It's not a bit. It's absolutely walking on eggshells. Yes, that was my experience for the the period of time that we were married. And even really in hindsight prior to the marriage, that was happening when we were dating as well. I just couldn't see it. What then eventually happened or came to light that kind of brought the D-word in into the conversation? There were a couple of things that I think were catalysts for it. I had started seeing a counselor. We were also doing marriage counseling, but I was seeing a counselor independently. And in that time, the two of us had decided, my husband and I, that we were going to move somewhere else. We wanted to move to a different part of the country. I had applied for a position in Seattle, Washington, and received an offer for the position. And we decided we would move to Seattle. Prior to doing that, I had one last meeting with the counselor. And she said, I'm going to recommend a book for you. She said, You may not be ready for it now, but might be something that you want to read at some point. I said, Okay, what is it? She said, It's called Necessary Endings. And I knew what she was saying. Perhaps I'd want to read this book and consider a necessary ending with my husband. I was not ready for that. So I just wrote the book title down and took it away with me when I moved to Seattle. So that was the first thing. I think the second thing, though, and this was really important, is that my then husband had a business here in Atlanta. So his plan was to go back and forth between Atlanta and Seattle. So I moved. And within that first month of being on my own across country, it was almost like a light switch had flipped on. And I realized that I was in an unhealthy marriage and that it wasn't going to change, which is also when I did read the book Necessary Endings and realized that I've been relying on hope that things would change. And the authors talked about how hope is not a strategy that you actually need to see some progress. And I wasn't seeing that in the marriage, in spite of marriage counseling, all the things that I had tried to do. And so that propelled me to decide to file for divorce. So having that space, your alone time to think and process and read these materials, a light switch went on. Yeah. And I do think what you're saying is correct. I think having that space, that distance, allowed me to see the marriage for what it actually was. I'm not sure I would have been able to do that if I had stayed in Atlanta and we had been living together at the time. I think I did need to move across country and have space to myself to realize what I was in. So through the space and time that you had with yourself, you realized he's not going to change. What was the next step then? The next step was filing for divorce. And that means, of course, getting an attorney. I knew from my research that I needed to find an attorney in the Atlanta area that I need to file for divorce there. And this same counselor had who had been such a resource for me, was someone that I reached out to at that time, and she recommended a local attorney, Damon Bivick. I think it's Bivek and Brubaker. Or Brew Baker and Vivek. And so that was the first step. I should say actually there was a step before that, of course. You don't just file for divorce. You have to decide that's what you're going to do. And I thought about it. I'm a Christian, so I prayed about it. And it wasn't something that I ever anticipated that I would be doing. But again, when I realized that the marriage was unhealthy and that it wasn't going to change, that it was impacting me in very negative ways. And the only way I was going to be able to move forward was to extricate myself, then that's how I made the decision. I also did have a conversation with my then husband about the fact that I was going to file for divorce. As you can imagine, that did not go well. He asked me to think about it to reconsider, and I had made up my mind by that point. That is when I reached out to my counselor, got a recommendation for an attorney, and contacted the attorney to begin the process. Probably a cocktail of feelings. What were some of those? There was a lot of fear, fear of how my then husband might react, fear of what this process of divorce was going to be like, what was going to be involved, fear of what it would be like to be on my own again, because that wasn't something that I had anticipated. I think a lot of fear of the unknown. There was also some I think you classified as a feeling. There was some curiosity, I think, about what life would be like after. Because again, I knew it wasn't healthy. I knew that it was a necessary step for me to take. And so I suspected that things could be good on the other side of it, but that's all I knew at that point. I knew that there was going to be a long, painful journey ahead. But I was curious. And I was also a bit relieved. Once you make that decision about something that's really hard and really painful, but you finally decide, okay, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do this. There is that sense of relief. I remember feeling that. Thank you for sharing that pre-step. Yeah, because it doesn't just happen. What did you maybe have to do or get in order your ducks in a row in order to file for divorce? There's this whole process of getting a sense of your finances, your finances, your joint finances. I don't think I know anybody who thinks that's fun. That was really stressful too. One of the things that came up is that when I told my then husband I wanted to file for divorce, that's when he told me that he hadn't filed our taxes. The twist. There's the twist. There's the plot twist. Yes. So on top of navigating a divorce, I also had to figure out what to do about the tax situation. You mentioned the life elements. I should say that at that same time I had moved to Seattle for a new position. At that point, I was not practicing law, but I was working on the administrative side at a large law firm. And that position turned out not to be a good fit for me. So I had moved across the country. I didn't know anyone there. I had a job that wasn't working out. And now I had a marriage that wasn't working out. So it was a really difficult time. And then to add on that, this piece about, oh, I didn't pay our taxes. It was a really stressful time in my life. Yeah. The word that's coming up for me is isolated. Yes. I was very isolated. And something interesting happens when you file for divorce. I don't know if this is true for everyone, but I do feel like I've talked to a number of women, friends, and otherwise who've been through divorce. And it sounds like it might be a common theme, which is even if I'd been in Atlanta, there's something about the stigma of going through a divorce that causes people to withdraw. So, in other words, the friendships and relationships that you have, those aren't things that you can always maintain in the midst of a divorce for whatever reason. Um, I do think that sometimes people are worried that your divorce might rub off on them. It's contagious. So they keep their distance. But yeah, I had an additional element of isolation because I had moved across country and didn't know anyone there. Uh, so the question was, how was I going to take care of myself when I didn't have my usual support system? I did have my family, of course. They didn't live nearby, but they were definitely a source of support for me at the time. Thank you for opening up and being vulnerable about that and sharing this is the context of my life. And a divorce sucks in and of itself, but then when you layer on these other things that you're talking about, it is like exponential. Yeah, it was a bit much in an understated British kind of way. And the mission and purpose of this podcast is to help people feel like they're not alone. Um, even in maybe a similar situation where they're feeling isolated, but they can put on a podcast and hear other people's stories of divorce and resilience and coming out better on the other side. So I hope that it instills a sense of hope in them. So you're in Seattle, you've got this cocktail of feelings and emotions. What tools did you utilize to help you get through the hardest of days? That's a great question. One of the things that I realized pretty quickly is that if I didn't have connections or genuine connections in Seattle, that meant that in addition to feeling isolated, I was also feeling that physically. So not just emotionally, but physically. And it occurred to me that I was lacking in touch. In other words, I wasn't near my family, so I couldn't get a hug from my parents or my brothers. I didn't have any friends, so I couldn't get hugs from friends. A little odd to ask your coworkers for hugs. Lawyers. These are lawyers. Yeah, that's not really so one of the things I did early on was to schedule weekly massages. And I was fortunate they actually were covered by my health insurance. But that was a tremendous source of support for me early on, just to go in and have someone work on my body. It helped with touch, obviously. It helped with stress, it helped with tension, and it was a wonderful human connection that I didn't have otherwise. I don't even know what made me decide to do it initially, but I did realize very early on that there are those studies they did however many years ago about newborn babies needing touch in the hospital and how they died, unfortunately, when they weren't getting that. And it occurred to me that wouldn't just be babies, that would be anyone of any age. So that was one of the first things I did that was super helpful. And I looked forward to those. The massage therapist was a wonderful person. She had a great sense of humor. She knew what I was going through. And so I really um looked forward to those weekly massage therapy sessions. That is such a great tip. Oh, good. That's such a good tip. What what else did you utilize and lean into? I am an avid reader. Uh I I have always been an avid reader. In addition to that book, Necessary Endings, I started looking for other books that could help me through this time. And this one is very specific, but it may be helpful to some of your listeners. It occurred to me that, of course, there were things that I could work on, right, in the context of being in relationship. There was work I needed to do on myself, and I did feel like there was something very particular about my then husband. I started doing some research and I found this book called The Sociopath Next Door. Okay. And when I read it, again, I'm a lay person, I'm not a psychologist or therapist or counselor, but I did see a lot of parallels between the description of a sociopath and my then husband. And oddly enough, that was reassuring because the book talked about how sociopaths tend to find not weak people, but people who are loyal and who are strong and who can be a source of support for that person. And that helped comfort me because I wondered if maybe this was just about me. Like maybe I was a weak person and it was easy for someone to latch on. And the book talked about no, actually, sociopaths tend to be very charismatic and can fool just about anyone, from the layperson to a psychologist, a therapist. And when I thought back to our counseling sessions, I thought, you know what? I think that was happening in those sessions. I think he was charming the counselor as well. So that book was a really helpful support for me. I don't know for sure if my ex-husband is a sociopath, but he certainly demonstrated some of those tendencies. Reading was a huge um source of support for me, whether it was a book about the dynamics of relationships or or even just something for fun. I love mysteries. I was definitely indulging in a lot of mystery reading at the time. Even reading for fun, like to take you out of because some days it's about survival. It is. Yeah. It is. It is just about can I get through this day and reading or a massage or going for a walk by the water? Seattle's surrounded by water. So that was another beautiful aspect of being there. In fact, I met a consultant through work who I developed a friendship with, and he told me that Seattle is often a place of rebirth for people. So he said, it's not surprising you found your way here, found yourself getting a divorce, and some people fall in love with Seattle and stay. And for others, it's just a phase of their life where they are going through that process. So yeah, walks by the water, movies, to your point about being able to escape from your life for an hour or two. Movies are an hour now. So 90 minutes, two hours, two and a half. A great way to take a break from reality. So those things are really helpful. The initial big challenge was serving my then husband. You have to serve them in order to file for divorce. And he was dodging the process server. I remember being in the office at work, I was in a Meeting and I saw that my attorney was calling, so I excused myself and went in the hallway. My attorney said we tried to serve him again, maybe the third or fourth time. Wow. He said we couldn't get to him. And I remember thinking, I don't think I'm gonna make it. We can't even serve him. I don't know what else to do. I I can't make this happen. It has to happen. I don't know. I don't know if I can survive this. Fortunately, it was maybe the next week. My attorney called laughing. He said, We got him. I said, How did you get him? He said, He's still living in your condo. He said, and oddly enough, he said, while we were there, the fire alarm went off. And everyone came out onto the front patio of the building. And he came out and we served him. And I thought, Providence. So that was the first big challenge. Now, once once we got into the thick of the divorce proceedings, it really was the financial piece. As I said, even when you want to blame this person that you're with for everything, there are things that you have to learn about yourself, and there are ways that you have to grow and develop. And so I needed to work on how I handled money. And in the context of this relationship, neither of us was that great at handling money. And so he definitely added some financial challenges to our relationship. And he wasn't particularly interested in resolving them. So that fell to me. And so we didn't have assets. We didn't have children, which I do think was a blessing in this case. We just had debt. And that proved to be the sticking point in getting to a resolution with the divorce because I wasn't particularly interested in taking on more of his debt than I thought would be fair. So the divorce dragged on for several months. In Georgia, I'm assuming it's still the same case. You can be divorced within a month. It took several months for us to finally get to a resolution on that. So that was very stressful. My personal divorce process, I filed in uh February of 2023, and I got my final divorce decree, Labor Day weekend of 2024. So it took a little longer than a few months. But we went through a full discovery and all of that fun stuff. Yes. All the joy. Yeah. It I think it took, it's been several years now since I've been divorced. So I think it took about 10 months total. Okay. So, you know, in the scheme of things, not a long time, but when you think it's only going to take a month, 10 months feels like a lifetime. And also remember, and you know this, when you're in the middle of it, you don't know when it's going to end. So you're going from month to month thinking, is this the month? No, it's not. Is this the month? No, it's not. And so you do begin to wonder, will it ever end? Yeah. And then when it does end, you're like, whoa, it's over. This weird purgatory I've been in is over. That's a weird space too, for sure. I remember when my attorney called and said it was all said and done. I was actually in New York for work, and I took myself out to dinner. I just remember sitting there thinking, this is weird. Of course, I was happy because it had been so stressful for such a long time, but it also felt weird. You spend a lot of energy during the divorce, and there's also a lot of for me, there's a lot of anger and frustration and sadness and just outrage. And then all of a sudden, it's over. And then you're left with this what felt to me like an empty space. What do you do with that? And I knew I didn't want to fill it with bitterness. So then it was, what do I do now? Sure. Yeah, definitely a weird time, but a joyous time too. And you're how many years out are you from your divorce? I am now eight years out. Eight years out. Okay. And you've curated a whole other life for yourself that we're definitely going to talk about because I'm sure it uh I'm sure you wouldn't get there or wouldn't be where you are without going through and stepping on these stones. But if you could go back and have a conversation with the Monica who was just trudging through those hard days, what would you tell her now? I think probably the most important thing I'd say to myself is you did the best you could with what you knew at the time. Because I did spend a lot of time beating myself up during the divorce process, after the divorce for several years. How did you end up in this situation? Why did you marry someone like that? What does that say about you? And I realized over time that all I was doing was beating myself up and really beating myself bloody, frankly. That wasn't helpful. And so I had to come to terms with the fact that I had chosen this person, fallen in love with this person, married this person, and then eventually needed to divorce this person. And I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. And that has given me some sense of peace over the years. You mentioned a little bit about the tools and strategies that you utilized. This podcast also has a health and wellness lens to it. I'm curious, how did you prioritize and maintain your health of being during this time? I think there were two critical things that I did. The first is because it was such a challenging financial situation, I ended up finding a money coach.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Oh, yeah.

Debt, Taxes, And A Long Grind

The Strange Relief Of Final Decree

What I’d Tell My Past Self

Money Coaching And Finding Financial Peace

Tidying As Healing And A New Career

How Clutter Affects Stress And Health

Values Forged: Resilience And Curiosity

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Her name's Michael Ann Valtera, and she's based in Seattle, but she works with clients anywhere. I had this sense that, yes, of course, the finances of the divorce, my relationship, that those are going to be challenging. But I knew there was something more there. There was work that I needed to do personally about that. And Michael Ann is very skilled at working with women who find themselves in the position of wondering what's going on with them and their money. And she helped me to do some work around my own money autobiography. What did I learn about money growing up? How did I treat money over the years? And then, of course, she also helped me navigate the financial difficulties of the divorce. So she helped me put together a money plan so I knew where my money was going and where I wanted it to go over time. And this did take a lot of time, but over several years, she helped me to create a plan to get out of debt, which I was able to achieve. And she helped me to find financial peace, which so that was a critical part of my journey during that time. The second thing I did, because I love to read, my sister-in-law recommended this book called The Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo. And just a funny little aside, when she first told me about it, it was a New York Times bestseller. And I thought, I'm not gonna read that. Like, I'm not reading it because everybody else is reading it. I don't read books that everyone else is reading. I'm not a sheep. The funny part is I ended up going to a bookstore. I spent a lot of time in bookstores, and there it was, sitting on the shelf, staring at me. Prominently. It was staring at me on the shelf in the midst of all these other books. I picked it up, I browsed it, I bought it, I brought it home, and I read it that night. Marie talks about doing a tiding festival. So essentially, where you're going through your home and you are identifying what sparks joy, and then you're thanking and letting go of things that don't. And so I took myself through a tiding festival. I had a three-day weekend coming up, and I just spent that weekend going through everything in my home. And it was a huge source of support for me too, right? Making sure that my space was comforting, nurturing, joyful, peaceful, all those things that I was looking for in my life. And it was a bit of a foreshadowing because eventually, a few years later, I found out that Marie Kondo was teaching other people how to use her methodology. So I went through her certification program and became a certified Kanmari consultant. And then fast forward a few years later, I decided to start a professional organizing business. And so that's what I do now. I work with women who are busy and overwhelmed by the state of their homes to help them declutter and organize so they can have space to exhale and relax in their homes. And I find, I was gonna say oddly enough, but I don't think it's so odd, actually, that the women who tend to be my clients are often in major transitions themselves, whether it's divorce or a midlife career transition or empty nest, ooh, paramenopause or menopause, those are the women who tend to find me. All those years ago, this book that I was resistant to and then read ended up changing my life in a number of fundamental ways. But at the time, that was a tremendous source of support. Thank you for sharing that. Let's go down a bit of a tangent here because I'm curious, you've worked with a number of clients. What connection do you see between tidying up and organization and one's health and being? Yeah, it's an interesting kind of connection. It may not be very obvious, right? Because particularly if you're spending time on, well, let's say Instagram and you're seeing like beautifully color-coded shelves or something, that's great if that's important to you. But it's more about when you are going through your things one by one, you are actually individually examining what's going on in your life as well. And again, I I won't claim that there are specific studies that show ties between, say, your health and or your physical health and your clutter. But what I can tell you is that there are studies that show that for women specifically, clutter raises our cortisol levels. And the converse of that is if you can tidy your home, then you can lower your cortisol levels and you can be more at peace. I've had many sort of conversations with women who laugh about the difference between them and their husbands, how their husbands will often not even see the clutter that's in front of them, will step right over it. Whereas the wife is, what is this? So I think I know there's something to that. I would say that for women in transition in particular, there's something magical about going through all the things that you've acquired over the years. It could be that there's some analysis that needs to happen, some reflection around how those things ended up in your life and are you ready to let go of them? Because by doing so, you're making space for what's new. And so my clients often experience it as a lift, a lightning of their being. You're lifting this weight off of their shoulders and making space, this open space for what's next. So it's more of a maybe a mental health benefit in that sense. Yeah. Just speaking from my own experience, moving from a 5,500 square foot house to then a 1,200 square, maybe 1100 square foot apartment in executive housing. So none of the stuff was actually ours. And then moving to 750 square feet apartment in Atlanta, which is just as expensive as my 5,500 square foot house in Arkansas. But anyway, I realized I don't need all this stuff. The more space I have, the more I feel like it needs to be filled with things. And I don't need any of it. It's a big realization, I think. I have clients who come to me and say, Oh, are you going to make me get rid of everything? Do I have to be a minimalist? And my response to that is, of course not. It's just a question of, does it spark joy? And if it does, it stays. And if it doesn't, you thank it and you let it go. And there are people who will be super excited to get those things that you let go. Those things will spark joy for someone else. But me personally, I think I'm similar to you in that I don't need all those things. And I like having spaciousness, I like having that openness because that helps me continue to cultivate curiosity about what's next and leaving space for lots of lovely things to enter my life. Let's, okay, let's. That's a great segue. Um, lovely things to enter your life. What, you know, as you kind of reflect back, personal insights and learnings, what values maybe crystallized for you as a result of going through the DevOps? That's a good question, too. And you're reminding me that part of what was helpful in determining the values that emerge from this, in addition to working with the money coach, is working with a therapist. So I did extensive work with a therapist one-on-one and then also, or eventually joined a women's group led by a therapist. And what I saw through that experience was just how resilient I am. Because, like I said early on, when you're going through this, you might think it's never going to end and I can't make it. The truth is, you actually can. You can make it and you can come out of it better off. And that something I'm really proud about, the fact that I survived it and have come out of it in a much better, brighter place than I ever could have imagined. But resilience is something that's important to me because I recognize it's not just divorce, right? We all go through difficult things in life and we'll continue to do so. And so the resilience that I developed by going through this process will help me through those other tough times as well. I think also mentioned this a few times, curiosity. And what I mean about that is maintaining a sense of wonder about the world and about people, because it is very easy to find yourself feeling bitter after an experience like divorce. And I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I definitely was bitter for a period of time. I was sad and anxious and depressed. Oh, forgot to mention, in addition to all the other things that were going on, uh, I was going through perimenopause. Oh. So your internal and your external worlds were all just like a hot mess. It was a I it was a hot mess. I was a hot mess. So I think too, being resourceful is of an important value. And part and parcel of that, I think, is how do I put this? Is knowing this won't be one word as a value, but knowing what I couldn't handle and where I needed support. Rather than saying, I will do this all by myself, I will figure this out, recognizing actually I can't do this by myself. That's why I need a therapist, or that's why I need a money coach, or that's why, yes, Seattle is a hard place to make friends. So I think resourcefulness was another big part of it. And then, like I said, just knowing what my limits were and where I needed support. You mentioned coming up better on the other side. What gifts or opportunities did your divorce bring you? It's interesting. I was talking to someone about this yesterday, actually. What I said was I wouldn't wish this on anybody. And I wish there's a part of me that wishes it had never happened, right? That I could rewind and meet him at the party and recognize, no, step away from that. I didn't and I can't. These things have happened. I do think that going through this helps you develop compassion. Say more about that. Yeah, I think um it can be when things are going well for you, you can just give yourself a lot of credit for that fact. When things go wrong, you realize that you don't have control over everything and things are going to happen to you that you didn't plan. And I think now, maybe this is a product of age and wisdom too. I can see others going through this experience and know what it's like and feel compassion for them as opposed to being judgmental about it. I think sometimes folks are very judgmental about divorce and people going through it and will say things like, When my day people didn't get divorced, and people seem to lack commitment these days. And I'm what I'm thinking is you have no idea what's going on in someone's marriage. Yeah. And I remember reading this when I was going through divorce and sticking with me. And it was something about how when someone's going through a divorce, the temptation is to say, when you hear is to say, Oh, I'm so sorry. When it might be better when they tell you that they're divorced to say, congratulations. You don't know. Yeah. Because in fact, by the time someone's made the decision to get a divorce and then goes through that process, they are ready to be on the other side of it. So a congratulations actually makes a lot more sense. So yeah, I I resonate with what you're saying around compassion. I don't feel I was a very compassionate person before this or empathetic. It was very career corporate driven. And like the deadline is the deadline no matter what. And me personally, I would stay up all night, do all-nighters to hit the deadline. And now going through this process, life happens, and there's no, we don't live our lives in compartments, our personal lives, our professional lives, stress in one area is going to bleed over into the other. And you just never know what kind of day someone is having because of the context of their personal lives. And so I just I think I'm less judgmental, I'm more compassionate, I'm more empathetic to what people are going through, which is a lovely gift, I think. And yeah, I think for those of us who are achievement driven, we know what it takes, we're willing to put in the effort, and we expect to see results. And we often do. But as you've pointed out, there are times when life happens and you don't have control over that. And then it's ridiculous to presume that anyone else has control over everything in their lives as well. And I think that is a major realization that leads to that compassion, that empathy that you're talking about. It could happen to anyone, and it does happen to a lot of people. So, and our kind of last few questions here, what would you want others to take away from hearing your story? I want to circle back to what we talked about at the beginning, which is that if you are feeling alone, if you're feeling like I'm the only person this is happening to, you're not. I hate to say misery loves company, but that might be true. And you're not alone. I remember when I filed for divorce and finally got up the courage to tell my friends in Atlanta, I heard so many stories about their own experiences of divorce or friends of theirs who went through divorce. Same with the folks I started meeting in Seattle. And it helped me realize that I'm not the only person who's experienced this. And that was really comforting to me, I think. The other thing that I would repeat is that you will get through it. It will come to an end. Because, like I said, in my experience, I thought I was going to be done in about a month. And instead, it was just dragging on month to month, and you think I'm never going to get out of this, particularly if it's a complex divorce where there are children, where there are assets. It can feel like it's never ending, but I promise you it will come to an end. And also that when it comes to an end, if you feel like I did where it felt a bit unsettling and you thought, oh, I thought I was going to feel like amazing. And you don't feel amazing, give it some time because it takes time to make that transition. Yes, the divorce is finalized, but the transition to being on your own again and feeling good in your skin again will take some time as well. But that will come. I'm a very impatient person. So I think if I heard that, I might be like, oh, I can do better. I can, again, I'm achieving oriented, I can make this happen. You can try that. But if you notice that's not working, just know that cliches exist for a reason. Time does heal all wounds. Yeah. Once you felt, I don't know, maybe vulnerable to open up to your friends and colleagues around what was going on, what you got back was um equal vulnerability and them sharing their stories. For sure. And I was also mad, I'll just say that, because I thought, hey, man, why didn't you share this? Like when I was struggling in my marriage. And I think they're, I don't know. I don't know if it's that people want to keep those things private, and that's okay too, right? You're not required to share all of your life with someone else, your friends. But there was something about saying that I was filing for divorce that allowed people to open up in a way that they hadn't done before. But yeah, that was really helpful because I think I'd built this story in my head about how I. should be how my life should be and to find that others didn't have a perfect life meant it was okay for me not to have a perfect life. So it was very reassuring, yes. Yeah. The mission purpose of the podcast that network is so important to have friends and family to be your support network. Should one not have that or just not feel comfortable, hopefully podcasts like this can help them feel that their feelings are valid and they're not alone. For sure. I would say find a therapist, find a support group, but in the middle of the night when you wake up and it's just you, essentially this podcast is like a voice in the wilderness, right? It's that light that people need to know that yeah to know that they're not alone because you're not I would love for you to share because you work with clients virtually as well. And so should a listener be interested in tidying up, organizing, maybe resetting this part of their lives, how can they get in touch with you? Yeah, the best way to reach me is by email at monicarparker at gmail.com. Don't forget the R. I work with clients in person in the Atlanta metro area and virtually if you're anywhere else. People just have this sense that if they were to go through their belongings, sort what they need, what they want, what supports them and let go of the rest that it will somehow help them in their divorce transition, that's a good reason to reach out to me or someone like me to help you. So yeah, I'm happy to help in that regard. Great. I'm I hope that someone listening reaches out because it sounds like it really can be therapeutic as part of the process. I think that's right. That's a great word. It's not therapy but it is therapeutic. Cathartic. Yeah. Monica, thank you so much for being here today. Really appreciate you sharing your story and vulnerably opening up and sharing kind of the good, the bad and the ugly. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we turn heartbreak into healing and survival into strength. As Brene Brown says, vulnerability is the last thing we want to show, but the first thing we look for in others. That's what this is all about real people showing up, sharing their stories, and reminding the rest of us that we're not alone. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might need to hear it too. And remember, you have a choice better or better. See you next time for more real stories, real people, and real resilience